Build a new tunnel connecting the Hoboken terminal to Manhattan under the Hudson River. In Lower Manhattan, the tracks would split, with service to Grand Central and Atlantic Yards in Brooklyn by way of a new East River Tunnel.

I would also add two new tunnels for Amtrak HSR that would parallel the existing two track tunnel under the Hudson River and feed into Penn Station.

They won’t run empty; Stamford and Edison are both major job centers. If the RER manages to fill its through-run trains west of La Defense in the morning and east of downtown Paris, an integrated LIRR-MNRR-NJT system will be able to as well. After all, New York has more edge city development than Paris.

Someone has to tell that to the Regional Plan Association. The RPA for all it’s problems is reasonably competent. They seem to think that extending east is an option.

They also seem to think that a loop track serving Hell’s Kitchen is an option, which makes me question their judgment.

I’ve read comments along the line of “Water tunnel 3 is in the way!!!” Water tunnel 3 is west of the station and hundreds of feet deeper. If the station wasn’t as deep as it will be I’d be more concerned that the Sixth Ave IND would be in the way.

It’s Water Tunnel 1, not Water Tunnel 3. And for the record, it is true that the station is planned to be where it is and not further east because otherwise it’d run into the tunnel.

Then why do they use three? The MTA and Amtrak have their faults but they aren’t incompetent enough to use three tunnels when two would do. Or to have spent all the money they did to be able to do that.

What reason do they have to use just 2? They don’t need 2 in the other direction – they park trains at Penn Station instead of immediately sending them back east. If they’d built this line from scratch they might have included only 3 tracks, but they didn’t; the PRR did, planning on using it for frequent traffic in both directions between Penn Station and Atlantic Terminal.

Which is different from the engineer walking from one end of the train to the other and turning around how?

First, dwell times. It takes the engineer time to walk back and then set up at his new post – the subway’s terminal dwells bottom at 3-4 minutes at rush hour, and I believe the subway runs shorter trains than the LIRR. The only subway line that achieves terminal dwells lower than 3 minutes is the 42nd Street Shuttle, which has an engineer at the front and a conductor at the back who stay in their positions and switch roles every time the train turns around. I’m sure the union representing the engineers would love to have such a solution for commuter rail, but for the people who have to spend the extra money, it’s a nightmare.

And second, convenient transfers and one-seat rides. Right now, to get from Long Island to Edison, you need to change trains at Penn Station, which is mildly inconvenient, somewhat more so than at Jamaica. ARC will also permit MNRR-NJT transfers, but they will be extremely inconvenient, since the MNRR will stop at Subsurface Penn Station and the NJT at Deep Penn Station.

In most cases, the best thing to do is take a cue from systems that work. For commuter rail, that’s Paris and Tokyo. Tokyo and Paris both have extensive through-running. In Tokyo, this through-running sometimes involves trains switching from one private company’s lines to another. In Paris the commuter rail system was revived by through-running; in Philadelphia through-running had positive effects as well, though unfortunately they were swamped by a months-long transit strike.

Amtrak will go from whatever fraction of 23 they have now to 23 – via the existing tunnels. .

Right now Amtrak tops at 3 tph; during the NJT’s rush hour, it has 2 tph. Once the NJT adds these 2 extra tph to its schedule, it’ll need to use Subsurface Penn Station as overflow, requiring commuters to know exactly which station to head to in the evening.

It would lead to gridlock if it was one set of four tunnels too. As it does when there is a problem in the East River Tunnels or the Park Ave Tunnels or one of the four track subways….

A quad-track line loses less capacity than two separate two-track lines. If a quad-track line, say the East River Tunnels, loses one track, then trains can be run 2/1. It’s annoying, but if there’s enough room on the other side, then it’s doable. If two two-track lines lose one track, then one two-track line is fine, and the other is shut down. Running 1/0 is impossible – it requires the NJT to post notices everywhere telling people that only the next X trains will use the station that lost an access track and all other trains will depart from the remaining station. The loss of capacity then as well as the inconvenience is much larger.

CDOT and Metro North would love it if the catenary ran all the way into Grand Central or third rail all the way to New Haven. ( I’m not sure Connecticut commuters would be too happy about third rail to New Haven. Or the NIMBYs about all the new substations ) It would make the trains much cheaper to buy and much cheaper to maintain. I assume since they haven’t done anything about that since 1915 there’s some technical reason why it hasn’t been done. . . Probably that the Park Ave tunnels aren’t high enough for catenary. Not to mention they would still have to maintain third rail between Woodlawn and Grand Central for the Harlem Line trains. If you rummage around in the MTA’s website there are plans to add service to Penn Station from Metro North’s territory. Once the capacity is freed up. By the ARC tunnel and terminal.

Trenton to New Haven, then there will be less need for these dual-mode trains…

But then the New Haven line goes from managing one type of train to two types of train. Metro North goes from managing two types of trains to three types of train. Then there’s the cost of running empty trains from Penn Station to Trenton in the morning rush hour and the expense of running empty trains from Trenton in the evening rush. Or empty trains to New Haven in the morning rush and empty trains from New Haven in the evening rush, however you want to look at it. Trains have to be staffed. They use electricity when they move. Their get maintained based on how many miles they travel. … costs a lot of money to run empty trains hither and yon. Which is why there are storage yards close to Penn Station and Grand Central. Probably need more rolling stock too. At the peak of rush hour instead of moving the last train from the yard to Penn Station or Grand Central it’s off somewhere between New Rochelle and Stamford. Or between Rahway and New Brunswick, Empty.

If there weren’t a water tunnel in between, I’d be all for it. The prime reason the ARC project is stupid is that it inconveniently puts its station at a location where it’s physical impossible to continue east.

Someone has to tell that to the Regional Plan Association. The RPA for all it’s problems is reasonably competent. They seem to think that extending east is an option. As in “Once ARC is in place it opens the way for future options to reach the east side of Midtown Manhattan.” They’ve dropped their support for a third station at Rockefeller Center and the fourth station “on the far west side” but still support one in the general vicinity of Grand Central. Taken from their March 2008 report.

http://www.rpa.org/pdf/RPAARCandNYCReport.pdf

There’s other similar references on their site.

I’ve read comments along the line of “Water tunnel 3 is in the way!!!” Water tunnel 3 is west of the station and hundreds of feet deeper. If the station wasn’t as deep as it will be I’d be more concerned that the Sixth Ave IND would be in the way.

Peak traffic is 42-43 tph, which can be done with two tracks.

Then why do they use three? The MTA and Amtrak have their faults but they aren’t incompetent enough to use three tunnels when two would do. Or to have spent all the money they did to be able to do that.

The NJT and Amtrak run 25 tph peak through the North River Tunnels.

It’s 23. Which will be 48 someday.

this way the LIRR train westbound in New Jersey serves the same function as the return-trip NJT train.

Which is different from the engineer walking from one end of the train to the other and turning around how?

This is impossible. The new tunnels will have the same capacity as the old ones.

There will be four of them instead of two. With two tunnels they can manage 23 trains per hour in peak direction. With four tunnels they will be able to manage 48 in peak direction. That seems like a capacity improvement to me. Right now Amtrak and NJ Transit share the tunnels. After ARC is finished Amtrak will have the existing tunnels all to itself. NJ Transit will have the ARC tunnels all to itself. NJ Transit will go from whatever fraction of 23 they have now to 25 – via the ARC tunnels. Amtrak will go from whatever fraction of 23 they have now to 23 – via the existing tunnels. .

If the traffic you predict materialize, it will use both tunnels

I’m not predicting it, NJ Transit is. I’m sure the RPA or someone in the Federal government would have objected if they were wildly overstated. As it is I think they are understated. There’s lots of people out there who are avoiding the trains because they are so overcrowded.

leading to gridlock if one of the two pairs is disrupted.

It would lead to gridlock if it was one set of four tunnels too. As it does when there is a problem in the East River Tunnels or the Park Ave Tunnels or one of the four track subways….

You mean like the Metro North trains that use the New Haven Line? Hell, if the initial through-running is from Trenton to New Haven, then there will be less need for these dual-mode trains…

It’s a dead end until they scare up the money to connect it to the LIRR station under Grand Central.

If there weren’t a water tunnel in between, I’d be all for it. The prime reason the ARC project is stupid is that it inconveniently puts its station at a location where it’s physical impossible to continue east.

If you want to run all the NJ Transit trains through to Long Island you have to build new East River Tunnels. The LIRR and Amtrak use three of the four tunnels in peak direction.

They don’t have to, though. Peak traffic is 42-43 tph, which can be done with two tracks. The NJT and Amtrak run 25 tph peak through the North River Tunnels.

And the idea isn’t to have the existing trains just continue beyond Penn. It’s to have the NJT and LIRR combine operations, so that they share trains; this way the LIRR train westbound in New Jersey serves the same function as the return-trip NJT train.

Amtrak will be getting additional frequencies out of it. NJ Transit will not be using the existing tunnels for years if not decades after the new tunnels open.

This is impossible. The new tunnels will have the same capacity as the old ones. The NJT can shift wholesale to ARC, iff there is no extra traffic. If the traffic you predict materialize, it will use both tunnels, leading to gridlock if one of the two pairs is disrupted.

CATS said they still fit within the parameters for FTA funding, but they are not a MEDIUM-HIGH I would guess. However, they have been able to increase their ridership estimate somewhat for the Northeast line as well, so maybe it’s a wash.

There’s almost nothing here in added NEC capacity for Amtrak

NJ Transit will no longer be in the existing tunnels, the bottleneck is the tunnels. There’s lots going on between the tunnels, both sets, and Newark that will increase reliability and capacity. Portal Bridge being replaced for instance.

nothing for connectivity of LIRR trains or MetroNorth service into Jersey.

While there are extreme commuters who go from Long Island to New Jersey or New Jersey to Westchester or whatever combination you want to confect, it’s not a lot of people. While it is expensive there already is service between Metro North and New Jersey, Amtrak. There’s never going to be LIRR trains in New Jersey unless someone wants to spend lots of money on third rail or dual mode trains. Or lots of money on catenary or dual mode trains to get NJ Transit trains onto Long Island or into Metro North other than the New Haven line. … and Metro North will be using the new station, the lines west of the Hudson. The outer unbuilt tracks in Secausus Transfer will be used for those lines. I suppose that is going to make it Secausus Junction.

dead-end to nowhere tunnel

34th and 7th is somewhere. It’s why 600,000 people a day go there.

It’s a dead end until they scare up the money to connect it to the LIRR station under Grand Central. Which would make both of them connect to something, though why someone would take a LIRR train to Penn Station via Grand Central escapes me. Or why the LIRR would do that unless they wanted to take the train to the West Side Yards.

add substantially to Amtrak frequencies

Amtrak will be getting additional frequencies out of it. NJ Transit will not be using the existing tunnels for years if not decades after the new tunnels open. The LIRR was hoping to decrease service to Penn Station when Grand Central opened but I’ve read that their passenger projections predict that they won’t be able to. I suspect Amtrak’s problems are going shift from the North River tunnels to the East River Tunnels.

If ARC does not connect and contribute to the national passenger rail system it should not be built w/ federal $.

Then the Second Avenue Subway shouldn’t be getting any money. Or the LIRR’s East Side access. Or buses for Ottumwa Iowa

if I’m not mistaken, two thirds of the ARC costs are not for the tunnel, but for the new station.

Drilling the hole it’s going to be in is going to be expensive but not 2/3rds of the cost. The new entrances etc would have to be done no matter what option they decided to build.

building tunnels that connect to the existing station, would then cost one third as much.

You have been in Penn Station at rush hour recently haven’t you? Add a 100,000 more people to that and you have to double deck the passengers to get them in and out. As it is they are predicting pedestrian traffic jams blocks away from the stations. I suppose they could tear everything down to the level of the ties and rebuild to improve passenger flows but that would screw up commuting for a decade.

If it leads to through-routing of the LIRR and NJT, then it will also attract more new riders, as it suddenly becomes feasible to live in New Jersey and work in Long Island or vice versa.

People can commute between Long Island to New Jersey and do, they change trains in Penn Station, Just like they would have to if the trains ran through except for the very small percentage that happen to live along a line that runs through to their job in New Jersey. ( or vice versa )

If you want to run all the NJ Transit trains through to Long Island you have to build new East River Tunnels. The LIRR and Amtrak use three of the four tunnels in peak direction. There’s a lot of track work to be done in Penn. Station too. Many of the tracks don’t run through. . . if it’s even possible.