Comments on: Lackawanna Cutoff Program Cleared for Engineering

By: Michael Tenenbaum, PE

Michael Tenenbaum, PE — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 05:47:30 +0000

I used to work summers for the Erie Lackawanna RR when I was a civil engineering student. I once asked some of the oldtimers about riding the Phoebe Snow out of Hoboken toward Chicago via Scranton and Salamanca.

The answer was fairly unanimous. It was a slo-go and the train only existed because it was subsidized by the Department of the Post Office. And this was even before Rte 17 was a limited access highway and I-80 was a gleam in Gen. Eisenhower’s eye.

The PO is no longer the destination for congressional pork so I gotta ask… who needs it and who’s going to subsidize it?

When you put this route on the pecking order that includes Jerry Nadler’s proposed trans-harbor freight tunnel (a project that can potentially take 400 trucks/hr off the GW Bridge), I’m just a little surprised that this proposal even gets this amount of attention.

By: Brandi

Brandi — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 03:39:45 +0000

The Lehigh Valley to the south of the Poconos has also been studying returning rail service to their region to Philadelphia and New York City. There is many more people in the Lehigh Valley and hopefully it can be as far a long in the process as the Poconos in a few years. I believe the Lehigh Valley is the 8th largest metro area without rail service at 800,000 people and in all honesty would probably attract more ridership than the Poconos. Pennsylvania is working on a statewide plan for expanding passenger rail service which is due out later this year.

By: lexslamman

lexslamman — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 08:00:29 +0000

After this is completed, I would like to see MTA/NJT trains extended over the I-84 corridor from Port Jervis to Scranton. Complete the triangle and provide transit into the steel town for the ‘reverse commute’ crowd. NJT is starting to grow beyond a commuter agency anyway, I am sure there are some people in Pike County, PA besides my aunt and cousins that would be thrilled to have that kind of transportation available in two directions. The point is that these trains should not just funnel manpower into NYC, but should also bring the innovation, intellect, and fiscal power of the metropolis out into the surrounding areas. It has to be built as a two way, mutually beneficial concept or people aren’t going to be using stations like Delaware Water Gap and Pocono Mountain. We’re already moving beyond just cramming bodies east of the Hudson.

By: Alon Levy

Alon Levy — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:16:37 +0000

Columbia County’s population is down 1.7% from 2000; Pike County’s is up 29%, Monroe County’s is up 19%.

That said, there are a lot of good inner-suburban projects in Westchester, like rail on the new Tappan Zee Bridge, connecting to White Plains. Though in terms of bang for the buck, they’re probably not even remotely close to electrification and a one-seat ride to Manhattan for the Pascack Valley, Main, and Bergen County Lines.

By: Adirondacker

Adirondacker — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:53:07 +0000

there is some commuter market from the Poconos to New York. Pike and Monroe Counties in Pennsylvania are growing quickly as New York’s newest exurbs. They probably won’t support a new commuter line, though. It’d be a lot better if the New Jersey Transit spent its scarce capital funds on improving service to close-by suburbs that need it, for example Bergen and Passaic Counties.

there is some commuter market from the Berkshires and Hudson Valley. Columbia County is growing quickly as New York’s newest exurb. They probably won’t support a new commuter line, though. It’d be a lot better if Metro North and NYDot spent its scarce capital funds on improving service to close-by suburbs that need it, for example Westchester and Rockland.

By: Alon Levy

Alon Levy — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:29:26 +0000

Woody, there is some commuter market from the Poconos to New York. Pike and Monroe Counties in Pennsylvania are growing quickly as New York’s newest exurbs. They probably won’t support a new commuter line, though. It’d be a lot better if the New Jersey Transit spent its scarce capital funds on improving service to close-by suburbs that need it, for example Bergen and Passaic Counties.

By: Woody

Woody — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 04:18:52 +0000

Now this route is gonna be all of America’s trains in one route fits all? Because the part closest to NYC will just be another five-day-a-week commuter line, a little longer commute than most, but not longer than the farthest exurban outposts of MetroNorth or the easternmost stops on the LIRR.

The Poconos may be a bit far for most five-day-a-week commuters. But it could get a lot of traffic from once-a-week and twice-a-week commuters. For example I know a couple who were living in Houston when he retired. They moved to a lovely small town. But she wanted to work a few more lucrative years. So she drove three hours to H-town every Monday morning, sometimes Sunday evening, and back to their retirement home for the weekend. Sometimes, depending on her lawyerly schedule, she would work in Houston on Monday and Tuesday, back with her husband on Wednesday, return to H-town for Thursday and or Friday. And I knew a computer jockey who worked three 11 1/2 hour days the City and spent four days with family at their home in the Poconos. Methinks the Poconos are filled with second homes that could put sometime-commuters on these trains.

And then there’s Scranton, poor Scranton, in decline since the coal played out. PA built a toll road, the Northeast Extension of the PA Turnpike iirc, back in the 60s or so, to try to help Scranton. I’m sure the politicians figure that this train will somehow help Scranton. Won’t hurt it. Not sure it’s worth half a billion, but hey, trade in a couple of cloverleaf interchanges and you’re there.

Then onward to Binghamton, and points north? I dunno. Gas is going up again, nearing $3 a gallon. Gas at $4 again will mean panic again out in AutoLand, and at $5 a gallon a train to Binghamton may look very smart.

By: Norman Brown

Norman Brown — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 03:19:40 +0000

Clearly operations are not the focus of this thread but,,,,what are the head times envisioned on this route? What sort of fare box operating ratio can this achieve? Yeah there are 30,000 students in Binghamton, half from the NYC metro area, how many trips a year do they take? Maybe 6. That is 90,000 fares. How many other asses in the seat could there be?

By: Adirondacker

Adirondacker — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 03:14:03 +0000

Binghamton-Scranton-NYC would not attract enough ridership, on its own, to have a dedicated rail link (assuming a reasonable speed) without many other stops.

The train from Binghamton doesn’t have to make all the stops.

There are no ROW acquisition costs. The part without tracks was designed a century ago for high speeds. Almost no gradient, very very broad curves.

The Phoebe Snow made it from Hoboken to Scranton in 3:15, the Merchants express, which made all of the stops in Penna. did it in 3:20. ( according to the 1956 schedule I checked ) I assume they are installing concrete ties and welded rail on the new parts and there’s probably a lot of it along the installed parts. An express that stops in East Stroudsburg, Dover and Newark could probably make it in 3 hours. Google says it’s 122 miles between Scranton and NYC and it takes 2:11. That’s wildly optimistic. ( Average speed of 55 MPH )

Binghamton is a bit more of a stretch. The Phoebe Snow’s schedule was 4:27. They’d have to speed that up a bit to make competitive with the bus and driving.

By: Alon Levy

Alon Levy — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:09:15 +0000

AlexB: the Queens Boulevard Line only has a one-mile section dedicated to express tracks; I-80 is almost 400 miles between New York and Youngstown. The Keystone Corridor will have to be maintained anyway, so this extra track will have to be maintained in addition to it rather than instead of it. This will increase rather than decrease maintenance costs.