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	<title>Comments on: Winston-Salem Proposes Modern Streetcar Line</title>
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	<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/17/winston-salem-proposes-modern-streetcar-line/</link>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/17/winston-salem-proposes-modern-streetcar-line/#comment-52657</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 01:27:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2467#comment-52657</guid>
		<description>If you look at the proposed map for Winston-Salem, it appears that the line will be entering an already dense older neighborhood to connect the hospital to the downtown. These are the main economic drivers of the city, so I see little new development in the first phase. Later phases would need to include loosely populated neighborhoods to see the new development effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you look at the proposed map for Winston-Salem, it appears that the line will be entering an already dense older neighborhood to connect the hospital to the downtown. These are the main economic drivers of the city, so I see little new development in the first phase. Later phases would need to include loosely populated neighborhoods to see the new development effect.</p>
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		<title>By: Woody</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/17/winston-salem-proposes-modern-streetcar-line/#comment-1623</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 00:27:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2467#comment-1623</guid>
		<description>&quot;streetcars supposed to be very much cheaper than a full blown light rail/tram, just some tracks in an already existing road, a glorified bus, maybe $10 million/mile?&quot;

Not exactly. Usually the underground utilities need protection before you lay the streetcar rails, and that often escalates into new mains, new sewer pipes, etc., and a complete rebuilding of the street. That way a city gets a lot of its utility costs shifted to the federal transportation budget. See Houston, for example.

And the railcar probably costs a good bit more than a glorified bus. It will last at least twice as long, after all.

So this figure does not strike me as being out of line. And I agree with you, it&#039;s a very reasonable goal to have a tram in every medium sized city in America. Like the French cities, excuse my language. If this is designed as a starter line, and later some lines connect to reach campuses, hospitals, employment centers, and residential neighborhoods, all the better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;streetcars supposed to be very much cheaper than a full blown light rail/tram, just some tracks in an already existing road, a glorified bus, maybe $10 million/mile?&#8221;</p>
<p>Not exactly. Usually the underground utilities need protection before you lay the streetcar rails, and that often escalates into new mains, new sewer pipes, etc., and a complete rebuilding of the street. That way a city gets a lot of its utility costs shifted to the federal transportation budget. See Houston, for example.</p>
<p>And the railcar probably costs a good bit more than a glorified bus. It will last at least twice as long, after all.</p>
<p>So this figure does not strike me as being out of line. And I agree with you, it&#8217;s a very reasonable goal to have a tram in every medium sized city in America. Like the French cities, excuse my language. If this is designed as a starter line, and later some lines connect to reach campuses, hospitals, employment centers, and residential neighborhoods, all the better.</p>
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		<title>By: AlexB</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/17/winston-salem-proposes-modern-streetcar-line/#comment-1622</link>
		<dc:creator>AlexB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:26:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2467#comment-1622</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t there something wrong with this project if it is a streetcar and the cost is $65 million?  At 2.6 miles, that seems high.  I thought streetcars were supposed to be very cheaper than a full blown light rail/tram, just some tracks in an already existing road, a glorified bus, maybe $10 million/mile?

While I sympathize with the opinion expressed in the post that the money could be better spent elsewhere, I have to think that a short streetcar connecting a small town&#039;s biggest destinations with a commuter train should be standard for all cities over 100,000 people.  I know the money is in short supply, and ridership would be low, but the theory is sound.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t there something wrong with this project if it is a streetcar and the cost is $65 million?  At 2.6 miles, that seems high.  I thought streetcars were supposed to be very cheaper than a full blown light rail/tram, just some tracks in an already existing road, a glorified bus, maybe $10 million/mile?</p>
<p>While I sympathize with the opinion expressed in the post that the money could be better spent elsewhere, I have to think that a short streetcar connecting a small town&#8217;s biggest destinations with a commuter train should be standard for all cities over 100,000 people.  I know the money is in short supply, and ridership would be low, but the theory is sound.</p>
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		<title>By: NikolasM</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/17/winston-salem-proposes-modern-streetcar-line/#comment-1621</link>
		<dc:creator>NikolasM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2467#comment-1621</guid>
		<description>I think the accounting is arbitrary between cities. Portland didn&#039;t include any carbon offsets according to the news article while other cities did. Having greenhouse gases lower than they were in 1990 despite a 15% increase in population is pretty good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the accounting is arbitrary between cities. Portland didn&#8217;t include any carbon offsets according to the news article while other cities did. Having greenhouse gases lower than they were in 1990 despite a 15% increase in population is pretty good.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/17/winston-salem-proposes-modern-streetcar-line/#comment-1617</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:00:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2467#comment-1617</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://davidappell.blogspot.com/2007/11/has-portland-really-cut-its-greenhouse.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt;. The headline is that Portland cut its greenhouse gas emissions from 16.8 tons in 1990 to 14.4 in 2006. When even San Diego has considerably lower emissions (11.2, from the PlaNYC documents), you know something is deeply wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://davidappell.blogspot.com/2007/11/has-portland-really-cut-its-greenhouse.html" rel="nofollow">Here</a>. The headline is that Portland cut its greenhouse gas emissions from 16.8 tons in 1990 to 14.4 in 2006. When even San Diego has considerably lower emissions (11.2, from the PlaNYC documents), you know something is deeply wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: NikolasM</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/17/winston-salem-proposes-modern-streetcar-line/#comment-1620</link>
		<dc:creator>NikolasM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2467#comment-1620</guid>
		<description>What is your source? Either way it is lower than the US average by 5 tons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is your source? Either way it is lower than the US average by 5 tons.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/17/winston-salem-proposes-modern-streetcar-line/#comment-1619</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2467#comment-1619</guid>
		<description>Portland is not a sustainable city. It pretends it is, but its per capita CO2 emissions are 15 tons, compared with 11 in San Diego and San Francisco, 7 in New York, 6 in London, and 4 in Washington.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Portland is not a sustainable city. It pretends it is, but its per capita CO2 emissions are 15 tons, compared with 11 in San Diego and San Francisco, 7 in New York, 6 in London, and 4 in Washington.</p>
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		<title>By: BruceMcF</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/17/winston-salem-proposes-modern-streetcar-line/#comment-1618</link>
		<dc:creator>BruceMcF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:47:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2467#comment-1618</guid>
		<description>Where will the regional train be going through, and how will that connect to the streetcar?

Indeed, could this be a longer route if it was a tram-train?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where will the regional train be going through, and how will that connect to the streetcar?</p>
<p>Indeed, could this be a longer route if it was a tram-train?</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/17/winston-salem-proposes-modern-streetcar-line/#comment-1616</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2467#comment-1616</guid>
		<description>Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

While streetcars cater well to dense neighborhoods, they also encourage higher density development in neighborhoods which aren&#039;t as dense when the streetcar is put into service.

Every city in the USA is faced with this dilemma. Some motivation  (e.g. tax money) is required for us to build streetcar lines especially in medium sized cities so that more dense development will occur &quot;naturally&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which came first, the chicken or the egg?</p>
<p>While streetcars cater well to dense neighborhoods, they also encourage higher density development in neighborhoods which aren&#8217;t as dense when the streetcar is put into service.</p>
<p>Every city in the USA is faced with this dilemma. Some motivation  (e.g. tax money) is required for us to build streetcar lines especially in medium sized cities so that more dense development will occur &#8220;naturally&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jarrett at HumanTransit.org</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/17/winston-salem-proposes-modern-streetcar-line/#comment-1615</link>
		<dc:creator>Jarrett at HumanTransit.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:28:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2467#comment-1615</guid>
		<description>Nothing is more frustrating than seeing a politician come back from a junket to Portland thinking that &quot;all&quot; his city needs is a streetcar.  The Portland Streetcar didn&#039;t make Portland a sustainable city.  The causation runs more the other way.

Some of Portland&#039;s recent redevelopment may have been &quot;triggered&quot; by a streetcar, but that development was the result of many other necessary conditions.  Portland today is the product of decades of aggressive planning, consensus building, and hard work in the trenches of policy.  Portland&#039;s goals had been worked through in minute detail, so that everything the city did -- parking pricing, zoning, street design, even the government&#039;s own locational decisions -- was an expression of a commitment to building a pedestrian-oriented city.

So I&#039;d like to see the Feds say this.  We&#039;ll fund your streetcar when you demonstrate that you&#039;ve laid the groundwork for it.  Show us your zoning, your parking policy, your criteria for pedestrian and bike facilities.  When you can show that you&#039;ve duplicated the consensus and commitment that got Portland to where it was when the streetcar was proposed in the 90s, then you&#039;re ready for a Federally funded streetcar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing is more frustrating than seeing a politician come back from a junket to Portland thinking that &#8220;all&#8221; his city needs is a streetcar.  The Portland Streetcar didn&#8217;t make Portland a sustainable city.  The causation runs more the other way.</p>
<p>Some of Portland&#8217;s recent redevelopment may have been &#8220;triggered&#8221; by a streetcar, but that development was the result of many other necessary conditions.  Portland today is the product of decades of aggressive planning, consensus building, and hard work in the trenches of policy.  Portland&#8217;s goals had been worked through in minute detail, so that everything the city did &#8212; parking pricing, zoning, street design, even the government&#8217;s own locational decisions &#8212; was an expression of a commitment to building a pedestrian-oriented city.</p>
<p>So I&#8217;d like to see the Feds say this.  We&#8217;ll fund your streetcar when you demonstrate that you&#8217;ve laid the groundwork for it.  Show us your zoning, your parking policy, your criteria for pedestrian and bike facilities.  When you can show that you&#8217;ve duplicated the consensus and commitment that got Portland to where it was when the streetcar was proposed in the 90s, then you&#8217;re ready for a Federally funded streetcar.</p>
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