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	<title>Comments on: Major Study Advocates 220 Mph Operation on Chicago-St. Louis Run</title>
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	<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/30/major-study-advocates-220-mph-operation-on-chicago-st-louis-run/</link>
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		<title>By: Nathanael</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/30/major-study-advocates-220-mph-operation-on-chicago-st-louis-run/#comment-5597</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathanael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 04:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2544#comment-5597</guid>
		<description>&quot;The interesting part of the eastern route shown in the map is that the portion from Chicago to Champaign could be a trunk line for a much larger network linking to Carbondale, Indianapolis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, etc.&quot;

It gets better: the &quot;first mile&quot; of this route out of Chicago is Union Station to Grand Crossing, which is needed by *every* train headed to Michigan, northern Indiana, or northern Ohio.  And which is very straight, very flat, and has spare right-of-way -- a rarity in downtown Chicago!

In contrast, the &quot;first mile&quot; of the existing Amtrak route is a snaking riverside route which is of no use for travel to any destinations other than Joliet, Springfield, and St. Louis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The interesting part of the eastern route shown in the map is that the portion from Chicago to Champaign could be a trunk line for a much larger network linking to Carbondale, Indianapolis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, etc.&#8221;</p>
<p>It gets better: the &#8220;first mile&#8221; of this route out of Chicago is Union Station to Grand Crossing, which is needed by *every* train headed to Michigan, northern Indiana, or northern Ohio.  And which is very straight, very flat, and has spare right-of-way &#8212; a rarity in downtown Chicago!</p>
<p>In contrast, the &#8220;first mile&#8221; of the existing Amtrak route is a snaking riverside route which is of no use for travel to any destinations other than Joliet, Springfield, and St. Louis.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/30/major-study-advocates-220-mph-operation-on-chicago-st-louis-run/#comment-1774</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 23:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2544#comment-1774</guid>
		<description>CAHSR will serve Central Valley cities, but most train traffic will not serve them. While some people hope to turn Bakersfield into an LA suburb, in practice fares are likely to be too high for significant numbers of commuters to use the service. It&#039;s no different from how the Shinkansen has a little bit of local commuter traffic, but the tracks are still dominated by major city to major city express trains.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CAHSR will serve Central Valley cities, but most train traffic will not serve them. While some people hope to turn Bakersfield into an LA suburb, in practice fares are likely to be too high for significant numbers of commuters to use the service. It&#8217;s no different from how the Shinkansen has a little bit of local commuter traffic, but the tracks are still dominated by major city to major city express trains.</p>
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		<title>By: Wad</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/30/major-study-advocates-220-mph-operation-on-chicago-st-louis-run/#comment-1773</link>
		<dc:creator>Wad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 03:05:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2544#comment-1773</guid>
		<description>Alon, California won&#039;t build a non-stop L.A. to Bay Area line paralleling I-5, bypassing the Central Valley. The basic line will serve all of those cities.

One of the implicit hopes of the Central Valley cities is that HSR would be a commuter line convenient enough to make the Valley north of Fresno be a Bay Area exurb, and the Valley south of Fresno be Southern California&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alon, California won&#8217;t build a non-stop L.A. to Bay Area line paralleling I-5, bypassing the Central Valley. The basic line will serve all of those cities.</p>
<p>One of the implicit hopes of the Central Valley cities is that HSR would be a commuter line convenient enough to make the Valley north of Fresno be a Bay Area exurb, and the Valley south of Fresno be Southern California&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/30/major-study-advocates-220-mph-operation-on-chicago-st-louis-run/#comment-1772</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2544#comment-1772</guid>
		<description>Wad, in fact most California HSR traffic is expected to be between the LA Basin and the SF Bay Area, rather than to and from the intermediate points. It&#039;s just that this traffic is going to be several times the capacity of air travel. While legacy rail lives on the intermediate stations, HSR lives primarily on major city to major city traffic, possibly with stops in the major suburbs; thus, the TGV can get away with locating all of its intermediate stations in rural areas, and the Shinkansen&#039;s greatest traffic comes from express trains that only stop in the three largest metro areas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wad, in fact most California HSR traffic is expected to be between the LA Basin and the SF Bay Area, rather than to and from the intermediate points. It&#8217;s just that this traffic is going to be several times the capacity of air travel. While legacy rail lives on the intermediate stations, HSR lives primarily on major city to major city traffic, possibly with stops in the major suburbs; thus, the TGV can get away with locating all of its intermediate stations in rural areas, and the Shinkansen&#8217;s greatest traffic comes from express trains that only stop in the three largest metro areas.</p>
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		<title>By: AlexB</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/30/major-study-advocates-220-mph-operation-on-chicago-st-louis-run/#comment-1771</link>
		<dc:creator>AlexB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2544#comment-1771</guid>
		<description>Great discussion!  I definitely think that HSR as a travel mode can stand up on its own regardless of the transit opportunities at each stop.  The time savings of being able to travel up to 220 mph with no security line are amazingly advantageous.  I think all HSR lines should terminate at city centers, but even if they terminate in random suburban areas, they will still be used, just like airports.

The interesting part of the eastern route shown in the map is that the portion from Chicago to Champaign could be a trunk line for a much larger network linking to Carbondale, Indianapolis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, etc.  The current plans have so many mediocre lines extending from Chicago, it always begged the question to me: why not construct 3 or so true HSR lines and branch out from there?  This could be the southern route, the route to Milwaukee could be the northern route and the route to Toledo would be the eastern route..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion!  I definitely think that HSR as a travel mode can stand up on its own regardless of the transit opportunities at each stop.  The time savings of being able to travel up to 220 mph with no security line are amazingly advantageous.  I think all HSR lines should terminate at city centers, but even if they terminate in random suburban areas, they will still be used, just like airports.</p>
<p>The interesting part of the eastern route shown in the map is that the portion from Chicago to Champaign could be a trunk line for a much larger network linking to Carbondale, Indianapolis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, etc.  The current plans have so many mediocre lines extending from Chicago, it always begged the question to me: why not construct 3 or so true HSR lines and branch out from there?  This could be the southern route, the route to Milwaukee could be the northern route and the route to Toledo would be the eastern route..</p>
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		<title>By: Wad</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/30/major-study-advocates-220-mph-operation-on-chicago-st-louis-run/#comment-1770</link>
		<dc:creator>Wad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2544#comment-1770</guid>
		<description>Alon Levy wrote:
&lt;i&gt;That’s because air travel’s main selling point is that airport-to-airport flight time is far less than what’s achievable with any other mode of transportation. Trains, whose main selling point is faster downtown-to-downtown travel, have to discharge people close to downtown.&lt;/i&gt;

Train ridership does not hinge upon the business traveler use-case profile, a small makeup of the broad market.

There&#039;s another advantage rail has for medium-length travel and one disadvantage to air travel.

Passenger aviation is trapped to a hub-and-spoke, point-to-point service format.

Airlines cannot fly their planes like Greyhound buses. The Los Angeles-to-New York market supports many nonstop flights, but you&#039;ll rarely see a plane stop at Las Vegas, Denver, Kansas City, Chicago and Pittsburgh along the way.

Ground-based transport can do this, but not over such vast distances. Rail&#039;s effectiveness is probably in the range of 300-500 miles.

If you take the California high-speed system, everyone seems to be stuck on the question of &quot;Why would anybody want to take a train between L.A. and San Francisco when you have flights every half hour between the cities?&quot;

People seem to forget that Southwest et al, don&#039;t do LAX-Bakersfield-Fresno-Modesto-Stockton-SFO flights.

There are so many city pairings that the HSR system has that planes will never be able to serve effectively. And the Central Valley is not the flyover country people commonly think.

There&#039;s about 5 million people, in addition to the 15 million in SoCal and the 12 million in the Bay Area and Sacramento megalopoles.

There are four-year universities in Bakersfield, Fresno, Merced, Modesto (Turlock) and Stockton -- these are all major economic components in the area. And existing San Joaquin service is used reasonably well.

Much of the Bay Area traffic will be from Fresno and points north, while much of the Southern California traffic will be from Fresno and points south.

The airlines wouldn&#039;t worry much about losing the L.A. to San Francisco market, but what may have them worried is a crisis of confidence. The airlines may be punished for not capturing the upside of a market that rail served, and this shakes confidence in the business model. Think of what the newspapers are going through right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alon Levy wrote:<br />
<i>That’s because air travel’s main selling point is that airport-to-airport flight time is far less than what’s achievable with any other mode of transportation. Trains, whose main selling point is faster downtown-to-downtown travel, have to discharge people close to downtown.</i></p>
<p>Train ridership does not hinge upon the business traveler use-case profile, a small makeup of the broad market.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s another advantage rail has for medium-length travel and one disadvantage to air travel.</p>
<p>Passenger aviation is trapped to a hub-and-spoke, point-to-point service format.</p>
<p>Airlines cannot fly their planes like Greyhound buses. The Los Angeles-to-New York market supports many nonstop flights, but you&#8217;ll rarely see a plane stop at Las Vegas, Denver, Kansas City, Chicago and Pittsburgh along the way.</p>
<p>Ground-based transport can do this, but not over such vast distances. Rail&#8217;s effectiveness is probably in the range of 300-500 miles.</p>
<p>If you take the California high-speed system, everyone seems to be stuck on the question of &#8220;Why would anybody want to take a train between L.A. and San Francisco when you have flights every half hour between the cities?&#8221;</p>
<p>People seem to forget that Southwest et al, don&#8217;t do LAX-Bakersfield-Fresno-Modesto-Stockton-SFO flights.</p>
<p>There are so many city pairings that the HSR system has that planes will never be able to serve effectively. And the Central Valley is not the flyover country people commonly think.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s about 5 million people, in addition to the 15 million in SoCal and the 12 million in the Bay Area and Sacramento megalopoles.</p>
<p>There are four-year universities in Bakersfield, Fresno, Merced, Modesto (Turlock) and Stockton &#8212; these are all major economic components in the area. And existing San Joaquin service is used reasonably well.</p>
<p>Much of the Bay Area traffic will be from Fresno and points north, while much of the Southern California traffic will be from Fresno and points south.</p>
<p>The airlines wouldn&#8217;t worry much about losing the L.A. to San Francisco market, but what may have them worried is a crisis of confidence. The airlines may be punished for not capturing the upside of a market that rail served, and this shakes confidence in the business model. Think of what the newspapers are going through right now.</p>
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		<title>By: Woody</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/30/major-study-advocates-220-mph-operation-on-chicago-st-louis-run/#comment-1769</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 03:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2544#comment-1769</guid>
		<description>Sean says &quot;It appears that the eastern routing ... has far more curves than the existing western alignment. The eastern alignment zig zags.&quot;

It appears that the western alignment is straighter because at the scale of the map, small curves don&#039;t show up. But the eastern alignment may allow real straightaways.

To get the best speeds, HSR needs long stretches as straight as possible. Any curvature presents a problem as speeds increase. So if a close-up of the routes would show the eastern line with more long, straight stretches, that is the way to go. Going fast on straight tracks for long enough means a small detour to Champaign won&#039;t matter.

As for the apparent zig zag, no problem. The train stops at Champaign, then it can easily zig to the west leaving there. Stop at Springfield, then zag due south to avoid built-up areas along the Mississippi River. Then zig again into St Louis. (My guess is it will take that last zig to avoid the Mississippi whether the eastern/Champaign or the western/Bloomington alignment gets chosen.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean says &#8220;It appears that the eastern routing &#8230; has far more curves than the existing western alignment. The eastern alignment zig zags.&#8221;</p>
<p>It appears that the western alignment is straighter because at the scale of the map, small curves don&#8217;t show up. But the eastern alignment may allow real straightaways.</p>
<p>To get the best speeds, HSR needs long stretches as straight as possible. Any curvature presents a problem as speeds increase. So if a close-up of the routes would show the eastern line with more long, straight stretches, that is the way to go. Going fast on straight tracks for long enough means a small detour to Champaign won&#8217;t matter.</p>
<p>As for the apparent zig zag, no problem. The train stops at Champaign, then it can easily zig to the west leaving there. Stop at Springfield, then zag due south to avoid built-up areas along the Mississippi River. Then zig again into St Louis. (My guess is it will take that last zig to avoid the Mississippi whether the eastern/Champaign or the western/Bloomington alignment gets chosen.)</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Stanke</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/30/major-study-advocates-220-mph-operation-on-chicago-st-louis-run/#comment-1768</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Stanke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 00:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2544#comment-1768</guid>
		<description>The HSR or Transit, chicken-or-egg, question was already answered over the last twenty years. In France they destroyed most of their trams/streetcars, just like the U.S. only a decade or so later. Since 1985 over twenty new trams systems have been installed, 18 of them in TGV served cities. Only the first, Nantes, was put in before the TGV. The other 17 were installed AFTER the TGV service.

If TGV service led to trams over there why not the same here? Especially since St. Louis ALREADY has a light rail system in place. HSR will lead to local support to expand the light rail system and to greater ridership of it.

In CA I can see HSR leading to Fresno and Bakersfield finally pulling the trigger and reinstating either a light rail or streetcar system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The HSR or Transit, chicken-or-egg, question was already answered over the last twenty years. In France they destroyed most of their trams/streetcars, just like the U.S. only a decade or so later. Since 1985 over twenty new trams systems have been installed, 18 of them in TGV served cities. Only the first, Nantes, was put in before the TGV. The other 17 were installed AFTER the TGV service.</p>
<p>If TGV service led to trams over there why not the same here? Especially since St. Louis ALREADY has a light rail system in place. HSR will lead to local support to expand the light rail system and to greater ridership of it.</p>
<p>In CA I can see HSR leading to Fresno and Bakersfield finally pulling the trigger and reinstating either a light rail or streetcar system.</p>
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		<title>By: NikolasM</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/30/major-study-advocates-220-mph-operation-on-chicago-st-louis-run/#comment-1765</link>
		<dc:creator>NikolasM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2544#comment-1765</guid>
		<description>Wow, I struck a nerve with that St. Louis Metrolink comment. I am glad that St. Louis has what it has, but you have to admit there is room for MANY more lines, hence the &#039;laughable&#039; comment in regards to its current state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, I struck a nerve with that St. Louis Metrolink comment. I am glad that St. Louis has what it has, but you have to admit there is room for MANY more lines, hence the &#8216;laughable&#8217; comment in regards to its current state.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/06/30/major-study-advocates-220-mph-operation-on-chicago-st-louis-run/#comment-1767</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2544#comment-1767</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The same thing never hurt the airports.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s because air travel&#039;s main selling point is that airport-to-airport flight time is far less than what&#039;s achievable with any other mode of transportation. Trains, whose main selling point is faster downtown-to-downtown travel, have to discharge people close to downtown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The same thing never hurt the airports.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s because air travel&#8217;s main selling point is that airport-to-airport flight time is far less than what&#8217;s achievable with any other mode of transportation. Trains, whose main selling point is faster downtown-to-downtown travel, have to discharge people close to downtown.</p>
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