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	<title>Comments on: Readying an Electrified Transportation System</title>
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	<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/14/readying-an-electrified-transportation-system/</link>
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		<title>By: BruceMcF</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/14/readying-an-electrified-transportation-system/#comment-2006</link>
		<dc:creator>BruceMcF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2723#comment-2006</guid>
		<description>The passenger miles per gallon number for trains depend on two main things ... trip speeds, and energy efficiency. If Amtrak diesel services operating at a maximum of 79mph average 39pmpg, electrifying will roughly triple energy efficiency, while at the same time upgrading the corridors to allow 110mph rail paths would increase load factors.

All with existing technology.

Modernize the FRA heavy freight standards that require modern passenger trains to carry extra weight (concrete blocks in the &quot;baggage car&quot; of the Talgo tilt trains in the Pacific Northwest) ... and even more energy efficiency gains are available.

The obstacle is not technological, its a failure of political will to address the twin problems of climate chaos and structural economic dependence on energy imports.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The passenger miles per gallon number for trains depend on two main things &#8230; trip speeds, and energy efficiency. If Amtrak diesel services operating at a maximum of 79mph average 39pmpg, electrifying will roughly triple energy efficiency, while at the same time upgrading the corridors to allow 110mph rail paths would increase load factors.</p>
<p>All with existing technology.</p>
<p>Modernize the FRA heavy freight standards that require modern passenger trains to carry extra weight (concrete blocks in the &#8220;baggage car&#8221; of the Talgo tilt trains in the Pacific Northwest) &#8230; and even more energy efficiency gains are available.</p>
<p>The obstacle is not technological, its a failure of political will to address the twin problems of climate chaos and structural economic dependence on energy imports.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Fisher</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/14/readying-an-electrified-transportation-system/#comment-2005</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2723#comment-2005</guid>
		<description>Even &quot;electric&quot; cars are not electrified, and are not going to be as much of a miracle worker, like with hybrids. I&#039;m convinced that electric cars may be something of a distraction from good electrified transit, preferably on rails.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even &#8220;electric&#8221; cars are not electrified, and are not going to be as much of a miracle worker, like with hybrids. I&#8217;m convinced that electric cars may be something of a distraction from good electrified transit, preferably on rails.</p>
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		<title>By: Cameron Slick</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/14/readying-an-electrified-transportation-system/#comment-2004</link>
		<dc:creator>Cameron Slick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2723#comment-2004</guid>
		<description>Dear lyqwyd,

Your points on thorium are well-taken. But the Peak Uranium theory is well-noted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_uranium. While 70% of oil, 99% of Gas, and 100% of our Coal come from North America, only

The middle ground I&#039;ve taken on nuclear power is that we should not extend the lifespan of decrepit power plants built in the 1960&#039;s, so that when their contracts to operate expire they not be renewed.

Three other reasons to justify not delving further into nuclear power are the lack of a permanent storage facility, which should be infinitely more controversial than a new plant. The cost and time to build a two new reactor at the Vogtle plant is $14 billion, with a capacity of 2,234 MW ($6.26/MW , plus increasingly expensive operating costs for uranium and transporting, with diesel, nuclear waste).

Wind energy, given by all the states&#039; potential, can meet 90% of our energy needs. When the wind doesn&#039;t blow in Minnesota, it blows in Texas. A national smart grid will totally solve any inefficiencies in lower renewable power operation. Solar thermal power can be used for baseload electricity.

Concerns about nuclear power are not a relic. It is not directly dirty, but the process of building it is, unless you build a reactor using equipment that runs on biofuels. Or, if you power your uranium mill with wind power. Just look deeper at the money.

Using cornstarch for ethanol is better than making corn syrup or feeding cows (which requires 75 gallons of petroleum/steer). The debate over land use is legitimate in policy, but not in penalizing farmers.

Here is a link on ethanol
(http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10057/04-08-Ethanol.pdf.)

By establishing infrastructure and a market for ethanol, it&#039;s making it much easier for cellulosic ethanol to advance. In five years, everyone with a flex fuel or diesel will be in much better fiscal shape than those relying solely on gasoline.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear lyqwyd,</p>
<p>Your points on thorium are well-taken. But the Peak Uranium theory is well-noted. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_uranium" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_uranium</a>. While 70% of oil, 99% of Gas, and 100% of our Coal come from North America, only</p>
<p>The middle ground I&#8217;ve taken on nuclear power is that we should not extend the lifespan of decrepit power plants built in the 1960&#8242;s, so that when their contracts to operate expire they not be renewed.</p>
<p>Three other reasons to justify not delving further into nuclear power are the lack of a permanent storage facility, which should be infinitely more controversial than a new plant. The cost and time to build a two new reactor at the Vogtle plant is $14 billion, with a capacity of 2,234 MW ($6.26/MW , plus increasingly expensive operating costs for uranium and transporting, with diesel, nuclear waste).</p>
<p>Wind energy, given by all the states&#8217; potential, can meet 90% of our energy needs. When the wind doesn&#8217;t blow in Minnesota, it blows in Texas. A national smart grid will totally solve any inefficiencies in lower renewable power operation. Solar thermal power can be used for baseload electricity.</p>
<p>Concerns about nuclear power are not a relic. It is not directly dirty, but the process of building it is, unless you build a reactor using equipment that runs on biofuels. Or, if you power your uranium mill with wind power. Just look deeper at the money.</p>
<p>Using cornstarch for ethanol is better than making corn syrup or feeding cows (which requires 75 gallons of petroleum/steer). The debate over land use is legitimate in policy, but not in penalizing farmers.</p>
<p>Here is a link on ethanol<br />
(<a href="http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10057/04-08-Ethanol.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10057/04-08-Ethanol.pdf</a>.)</p>
<p>By establishing infrastructure and a market for ethanol, it&#8217;s making it much easier for cellulosic ethanol to advance. In five years, everyone with a flex fuel or diesel will be in much better fiscal shape than those relying solely on gasoline.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Parker</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/14/readying-an-electrified-transportation-system/#comment-2003</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Parker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2723#comment-2003</guid>
		<description>1. The Conawengo dam on the Susquehanna river has been the primary source of power for the Pennsylvania railroad (later Amtrak) electrification between New York and Washington.  Not sure if that&#039;s still true.

2. Electric power is considerably more efficient than diesel, so even if the people are already riding transit, the efficiencies make up for coal as a source.  In transportation, anyway, the grid is more efficient than moving &quot;local&quot; power production.

3. A big part of the economics of electrifying rail lines is in simultaneously building out the grid for windmill power.  It may be that rail electrification uses the wind power!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. The Conawengo dam on the Susquehanna river has been the primary source of power for the Pennsylvania railroad (later Amtrak) electrification between New York and Washington.  Not sure if that&#8217;s still true.</p>
<p>2. Electric power is considerably more efficient than diesel, so even if the people are already riding transit, the efficiencies make up for coal as a source.  In transportation, anyway, the grid is more efficient than moving &#8220;local&#8221; power production.</p>
<p>3. A big part of the economics of electrifying rail lines is in simultaneously building out the grid for windmill power.  It may be that rail electrification uses the wind power!</p>
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		<title>By: Chris G</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/14/readying-an-electrified-transportation-system/#comment-2002</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2723#comment-2002</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll agree with Nathaniel up here.  Local generation is the key from the individual user.  Both Solar, and fuel cells as back up.

There is an issue with this on it increasing prices of commercial power because of reduced demand.  But I am a huge believer in nuclear for that.  Its safe.  its no where near as bad as the treehuggers and jane fonda want you to believe and contrary to the article out of Yale on Monday, they have been building and using floating nuclear reactors for 40 year.

Its a large picture game.  We need to spread out generation to each building.  We need to electrify every rail line and build more.  We need to build more nuclear plants.  we need to build more wind/solar/undersea.  Its not a one or the other as so many politicians want to make it.  We even need higher mileage cars.

But that brings me to another point.  There should be a $1000 per year tax on owning a second car in a family.  There is really no need.  If you live where you need two or more cars or have so much money you own them because you want them, move or pay up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll agree with Nathaniel up here.  Local generation is the key from the individual user.  Both Solar, and fuel cells as back up.</p>
<p>There is an issue with this on it increasing prices of commercial power because of reduced demand.  But I am a huge believer in nuclear for that.  Its safe.  its no where near as bad as the treehuggers and jane fonda want you to believe and contrary to the article out of Yale on Monday, they have been building and using floating nuclear reactors for 40 year.</p>
<p>Its a large picture game.  We need to spread out generation to each building.  We need to electrify every rail line and build more.  We need to build more nuclear plants.  we need to build more wind/solar/undersea.  Its not a one or the other as so many politicians want to make it.  We even need higher mileage cars.</p>
<p>But that brings me to another point.  There should be a $1000 per year tax on owning a second car in a family.  There is really no need.  If you live where you need two or more cars or have so much money you own them because you want them, move or pay up.</p>
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		<title>By: BLambert</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/14/readying-an-electrified-transportation-system/#comment-2000</link>
		<dc:creator>BLambert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2723#comment-2000</guid>
		<description>The DoE released a report in 2006 concerning untapped hydroelectric power at existing federal facilities; iirc, the amount of hydropower yet untapped in &gt;1mw capacities per installation in commercially-viable locations amounted to the output of a half-dozen average coal plants. At least one of the projects listed in that report along the Ohio river is being devoloped by a private company, and at more than 10x the DoE estimate.
The us hasn&#039;t yet finished tapping that resource, to say nothing g of other baseline generation such as geothermal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The DoE released a report in 2006 concerning untapped hydroelectric power at existing federal facilities; iirc, the amount of hydropower yet untapped in &gt;1mw capacities per installation in commercially-viable locations amounted to the output of a half-dozen average coal plants. At least one of the projects listed in that report along the Ohio river is being devoloped by a private company, and at more than 10x the DoE estimate.<br />
The us hasn&#8217;t yet finished tapping that resource, to say nothing g of other baseline generation such as geothermal.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathanael</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/14/readying-an-electrified-transportation-system/#comment-2001</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathanael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 03:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2723#comment-2001</guid>
		<description>Personally, I think the most promising trend is local, small-scale solar power.  Largely because it reduces load on the transmission lines, and does so at peak times.  Everyone should have their own solar panel.  This will release plenty of hydropower to power transit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I think the most promising trend is local, small-scale solar power.  Largely because it reduces load on the transmission lines, and does so at peak times.  Everyone should have their own solar panel.  This will release plenty of hydropower to power transit.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/14/readying-an-electrified-transportation-system/#comment-1999</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 02:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2723#comment-1999</guid>
		<description>Lyqwyd, I don&#039;t have a link, but both nuclear power proponents and opponents seem to agree uranium supplies can satisfy current electricity demand for 40 years.

Mind you, 40 years is a good stopgap solution, as the price of solar and wind power drops. Right now solar is still somewhat too expensive - the up-front cost takes I believe 8 years to recoup at current US market prices - but in the future, it&#039;ll be more accessible. Once solar and wind become as cheap as coal and hydro, it&#039;s game over for fossil fuels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lyqwyd, I don&#8217;t have a link, but both nuclear power proponents and opponents seem to agree uranium supplies can satisfy current electricity demand for 40 years.</p>
<p>Mind you, 40 years is a good stopgap solution, as the price of solar and wind power drops. Right now solar is still somewhat too expensive &#8211; the up-front cost takes I believe 8 years to recoup at current US market prices &#8211; but in the future, it&#8217;ll be more accessible. Once solar and wind become as cheap as coal and hydro, it&#8217;s game over for fossil fuels.</p>
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		<title>By: lyqwyd</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/14/readying-an-electrified-transportation-system/#comment-1998</link>
		<dc:creator>lyqwyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2723#comment-1998</guid>
		<description>Cameron, can you provide any support for your claim that we have passed peak uranium? haven&#039;t heard that before, but great! Thorium is a much better fuel than uranium for nuclear reactors:

1) it is much more abundant
2) it can&#039;t be used to make weapons grade materials
3) can be used to safely dispose of weapons grade plutonium
4) It is much safer (the reactors are much more resistant to meltdown)

there are other benefits as well but can&#039;t think of them off the top of my head.

nuclear power is currently the safest &amp; cleanest power source that can be used in large scale currently known to humanity.

Biodiesel &amp; ethanol displace food crops, wind only works when it&#039;s windy. Solar is currently still too expensive, and only works when/where it is sunny.

The idea that nuclear power is dirty or unsafe is completely false and a relic from decades ago when proper safety standards were not well understood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cameron, can you provide any support for your claim that we have passed peak uranium? haven&#8217;t heard that before, but great! Thorium is a much better fuel than uranium for nuclear reactors:</p>
<p>1) it is much more abundant<br />
2) it can&#8217;t be used to make weapons grade materials<br />
3) can be used to safely dispose of weapons grade plutonium<br />
4) It is much safer (the reactors are much more resistant to meltdown)</p>
<p>there are other benefits as well but can&#8217;t think of them off the top of my head.</p>
<p>nuclear power is currently the safest &amp; cleanest power source that can be used in large scale currently known to humanity.</p>
<p>Biodiesel &amp; ethanol displace food crops, wind only works when it&#8217;s windy. Solar is currently still too expensive, and only works when/where it is sunny.</p>
<p>The idea that nuclear power is dirty or unsafe is completely false and a relic from decades ago when proper safety standards were not well understood.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/14/readying-an-electrified-transportation-system/#comment-1997</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thetransportpolitic.com/?p=2723#comment-1997</guid>
		<description>Rockfish, you&#039;re understating your case. The 41 mpg figure takes passenger loads into account. The US has unusually low passenger loads by international standards, decreasing fuel efficiency. The same Wikipedia article Yonah quotes says that a Colorado DMU hauling two bilevel coaches can achieve 328 passenger-mpg at 70% load factor, and that Swiss light rail&#039;s energy efficiency per passenger is 37 times that of Amtrak.

Yonah, the French use of nuclear energy is one out of several emission reduction strategies. France&#039;s per capita CO2 emissions are among the lowest in the first world, but in some countries, most notably Switzerland, they&#039;re even lower. Switzerland achieves its low emissions by having a rail system that covers everyone, even in suburban and rural areas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rockfish, you&#8217;re understating your case. The 41 mpg figure takes passenger loads into account. The US has unusually low passenger loads by international standards, decreasing fuel efficiency. The same Wikipedia article Yonah quotes says that a Colorado DMU hauling two bilevel coaches can achieve 328 passenger-mpg at 70% load factor, and that Swiss light rail&#8217;s energy efficiency per passenger is 37 times that of Amtrak.</p>
<p>Yonah, the French use of nuclear energy is one out of several emission reduction strategies. France&#8217;s per capita CO2 emissions are among the lowest in the first world, but in some countries, most notably Switzerland, they&#8217;re even lower. Switzerland achieves its low emissions by having a rail system that covers everyone, even in suburban and rural areas.</p>
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