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	<title>Comments on: Vancouver Opens Canada Line &#8212; Months Ahead of Schedule</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/17/vancouver-opens-canada-line-months-ahead-of-schedule/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/17/vancouver-opens-canada-line-months-ahead-of-schedule/</link>
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		<title>By: Adrian</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/17/vancouver-opens-canada-line-months-ahead-of-schedule/#comment-21249</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3308#comment-21249</guid>
		<description>The incompatibility is really nothing.  There is no need to have a continuation of the Expo/Millennium Lines down the current Canada Line route because the two lines serve different commuters.  The connection at Waterfront Stations is currently adequate and is slated for improvement as the concourse of Waterfront is going to be renovated.  I also agree with Jarrett with the poor connection at City Centre and Granville.  Original plans had 4 stations in downtown rather than 3, one of which is at Dunsmuir to have a better connection with the Expo Line.  But, I also like to point out to Jarrett that the Canada Line does have provisions for the Millennium Line in mind.

Stephen makes a good point with regards to the single-tracking at both ends.  While I&#039;m not so worried about at YVR, the portion between Richmond is quite long.  At both ends, the Canada Line can sustain a maximum frequency of 2min 30sec because of the single guideways.  Keep in mind though, capacity can be increased between Waterfront and Bridgeport, the point where the line splits off and that portion of the line can handle trains arriving every 90 sec.  Short turning trains in Vancouver isn&#039;t new and is done on some portions of the Expo Line.

As with Corey&#039;s point, while platforms are small at 40 metres, expandable to 50 metres, I think that can easily be dealt with more trains.  ProTrans actually runs about 16 trains per day, when they actually have 20.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The incompatibility is really nothing.  There is no need to have a continuation of the Expo/Millennium Lines down the current Canada Line route because the two lines serve different commuters.  The connection at Waterfront Stations is currently adequate and is slated for improvement as the concourse of Waterfront is going to be renovated.  I also agree with Jarrett with the poor connection at City Centre and Granville.  Original plans had 4 stations in downtown rather than 3, one of which is at Dunsmuir to have a better connection with the Expo Line.  But, I also like to point out to Jarrett that the Canada Line does have provisions for the Millennium Line in mind.</p>
<p>Stephen makes a good point with regards to the single-tracking at both ends.  While I&#8217;m not so worried about at YVR, the portion between Richmond is quite long.  At both ends, the Canada Line can sustain a maximum frequency of 2min 30sec because of the single guideways.  Keep in mind though, capacity can be increased between Waterfront and Bridgeport, the point where the line splits off and that portion of the line can handle trains arriving every 90 sec.  Short turning trains in Vancouver isn&#8217;t new and is done on some portions of the Expo Line.</p>
<p>As with Corey&#8217;s point, while platforms are small at 40 metres, expandable to 50 metres, I think that can easily be dealt with more trains.  ProTrans actually runs about 16 trains per day, when they actually have 20.</p>
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		<title>By: Warren</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/17/vancouver-opens-canada-line-months-ahead-of-schedule/#comment-21241</link>
		<dc:creator>Warren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3308#comment-21241</guid>
		<description>Just thought I&#039;d update these comments.  Despite Stephen Rees&#039; negativity, the Canada Line is already way above projections and set to hit 100,000 average riders ahead of schedule.

It&#039;s a great line.  Too bad it couldn&#039;t be compatible with Skytrain, but the routing of the Canada Line vs. the Skytrain in the area likely makes this a moot point.

If P3 was the only way to get it done, so be it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just thought I&#8217;d update these comments.  Despite Stephen Rees&#8217; negativity, the Canada Line is already way above projections and set to hit 100,000 average riders ahead of schedule.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a great line.  Too bad it couldn&#8217;t be compatible with Skytrain, but the routing of the Canada Line vs. the Skytrain in the area likely makes this a moot point.</p>
<p>If P3 was the only way to get it done, so be it.</p>
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		<title>By: Corey Burger</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/17/vancouver-opens-canada-line-months-ahead-of-schedule/#comment-5527</link>
		<dc:creator>Corey Burger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 19:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3308#comment-5527</guid>
		<description>In this case, the need for a second line and where it needs to run has been pretty clearly identified for a long time. There are no excuses beyond poor planning to excuse the lack of connections with the existing system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In this case, the need for a second line and where it needs to run has been pretty clearly identified for a long time. There are no excuses beyond poor planning to excuse the lack of connections with the existing system.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/17/vancouver-opens-canada-line-months-ahead-of-schedule/#comment-4096</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3308#comment-4096</guid>
		<description>Jarrett, you can&#039;t always know where there will be demand for a second line, or how much you will want to build.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jarrett, you can&#8217;t always know where there will be demand for a second line, or how much you will want to build.</p>
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		<title>By: Corey Burger</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/17/vancouver-opens-canada-line-months-ahead-of-schedule/#comment-4095</link>
		<dc:creator>Corey Burger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3308#comment-4095</guid>
		<description>Jumped over straight to try it out yesterday and came away favourably impressed, although I am deeply skeptical of the P3 model and how the bidding was carried out: the Bombardier consortium was not allowed to mention the cost benefits of shared tech. I suspect this was to &quot;balance&quot; the playing field, as Bombardier is Canadian and sometimes other companies whine about us favouring them. See the new Toronto streetcar purchase for example.

A few other points:
-Lack of platform extendability is really going to hurt in about 10 years, maybe less. 
-Trains are spacious and the ride is smooth
-Stations are bland looking and seriously lack seats. They also completely lack bathrooms.

But, at the end of the day, it exists. We can argue about the might-have-beens, but the point is that it existing is a good thing. Expect major land use changes near stations in the near future, something Vancouver has already done quite well with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jumped over straight to try it out yesterday and came away favourably impressed, although I am deeply skeptical of the P3 model and how the bidding was carried out: the Bombardier consortium was not allowed to mention the cost benefits of shared tech. I suspect this was to &#8220;balance&#8221; the playing field, as Bombardier is Canadian and sometimes other companies whine about us favouring them. See the new Toronto streetcar purchase for example.</p>
<p>A few other points:<br />
-Lack of platform extendability is really going to hurt in about 10 years, maybe less.<br />
-Trains are spacious and the ride is smooth<br />
-Stations are bland looking and seriously lack seats. They also completely lack bathrooms.</p>
<p>But, at the end of the day, it exists. We can argue about the might-have-beens, but the point is that it existing is a good thing. Expect major land use changes near stations in the near future, something Vancouver has already done quite well with.</p>
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		<title>By: Jarrett at HumanTransit.org</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/17/vancouver-opens-canada-line-months-ahead-of-schedule/#comment-4036</link>
		<dc:creator>Jarrett at HumanTransit.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3308#comment-4036</guid>
		<description>Well, if we&#039;re all dumping on the Canada Line, I&#039;d point out that the connection between the two lines downtown is poor.  You can connect at Waterfront for a short walk but a circuitous ride, or at &quot;City Center&quot;/&quot;Granville&quot; for a shorter ride but a long walk.  

The important lesson here is that if you&#039;re building a subway line, and you want, someday in the future, for a second line to connect with it, you have to plan where that second line will be, and reserve the underground space it will need, as part of the design of the first line.  If you don&#039;t, other stuff will get built underground that prevents you from bringing a new line&#039;s station close enough to your existing station.  (This has turned out to be an important issue on the metro project in Sydney, where I live now.)  

For all the disappointments and legitimate objections around the P3, everyone involved deserves credit for the early opening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, if we&#8217;re all dumping on the Canada Line, I&#8217;d point out that the connection between the two lines downtown is poor.  You can connect at Waterfront for a short walk but a circuitous ride, or at &#8220;City Center&#8221;/&#8221;Granville&#8221; for a shorter ride but a long walk.  </p>
<p>The important lesson here is that if you&#8217;re building a subway line, and you want, someday in the future, for a second line to connect with it, you have to plan where that second line will be, and reserve the underground space it will need, as part of the design of the first line.  If you don&#8217;t, other stuff will get built underground that prevents you from bringing a new line&#8217;s station close enough to your existing station.  (This has turned out to be an important issue on the metro project in Sydney, where I live now.)  </p>
<p>For all the disappointments and legitimate objections around the P3, everyone involved deserves credit for the early opening.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Rees</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/17/vancouver-opens-canada-line-months-ahead-of-schedule/#comment-3994</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Rees</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 15:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3308#comment-3994</guid>
		<description>Subsidy will be required from opening day until the magic 100,000 rides per day figure is reached. the need to prop up the P3 for this project (and the very lightly used toll Golden Ears bridge) is one reason why Translink is trying go get new funding sources approved - despite string opposition from the BC government. If they do not get this funding Translink has already stated that ot will start cutting bus services.

The line was built down to a price, so there are severe restrictions on its future capacity. The most noticeable is the use of single track at the outer ends of both branches. Since trains have to traverse this track, unload, reload and then go back to the next station where double track starts, the maximum frequency is both low and fixed. 

Some of the original trains ordered from Rotem were cancelled as a cost saving measure. Many stations only have one escalator. Trains are only two cars long and fill the present station platforms.

The majority of the ridership will come from people displaced from curtailed bus routes - who in many cases will have a longer overall journey with transfers than the direct ride they have now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Subsidy will be required from opening day until the magic 100,000 rides per day figure is reached. the need to prop up the P3 for this project (and the very lightly used toll Golden Ears bridge) is one reason why Translink is trying go get new funding sources approved &#8211; despite string opposition from the BC government. If they do not get this funding Translink has already stated that ot will start cutting bus services.</p>
<p>The line was built down to a price, so there are severe restrictions on its future capacity. The most noticeable is the use of single track at the outer ends of both branches. Since trains have to traverse this track, unload, reload and then go back to the next station where double track starts, the maximum frequency is both low and fixed. </p>
<p>Some of the original trains ordered from Rotem were cancelled as a cost saving measure. Many stations only have one escalator. Trains are only two cars long and fill the present station platforms.</p>
<p>The majority of the ridership will come from people displaced from curtailed bus routes &#8211; who in many cases will have a longer overall journey with transfers than the direct ride they have now.</p>
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		<title>By: Yonah Freemark</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/17/vancouver-opens-canada-line-months-ahead-of-schedule/#comment-3923</link>
		<dc:creator>Yonah Freemark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 21:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3308#comment-3923</guid>
		<description>smably -
Thanks for your very good point; I didn&#039;t know about the tunneling issues and I neglected to mention the negative effects of choosing the lowest bidder, rather than the most technologically compatible one. These are serious problems that would not have necessarily occurred had the project been built solely by the public entity. I think, in general, there are also &lt;a href=&quot;http://thetransportpolitic.com/2008/12/22/hsr-public-or-private/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;major societal problems&lt;/a&gt; with choosing private, rather than public, operators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>smably -<br />
Thanks for your very good point; I didn&#8217;t know about the tunneling issues and I neglected to mention the negative effects of choosing the lowest bidder, rather than the most technologically compatible one. These are serious problems that would not have necessarily occurred had the project been built solely by the public entity. I think, in general, there are also <a href="http://thetransportpolitic.com/2008/12/22/hsr-public-or-private/" rel="nofollow">major societal problems</a> with choosing private, rather than public, operators.</p>
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		<title>By: smably</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/17/vancouver-opens-canada-line-months-ahead-of-schedule/#comment-3915</link>
		<dc:creator>smably</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 19:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3308#comment-3915</guid>
		<description>Good post, but I take issue with the claim that the Canada Line bodes well for P3s. The disruption along Cambie was a direct result of the P3 -- Translink didn&#039;t specify how the line was to be built, and the winning bidder chose cut-and-cover on a corridor where the expectation was that there would be a bored tunnel. The traffic disruptions on Cambie damaged Translink&#039;s reputation, and will make a future Skytrain extension to UBC politically difficult (even though it will almost certainly be built as a bored tunnel).

I know there was also some controversy over the selection of incompatible track and vehicle technology for the Canada Line (vs. existing SkyTrain). The bidding process didn&#039;t account for efficiencies derived from a uniform fleet of vehicles. So instead we got a completely different system that&#039;s incompatible with all the existing infrastructure. Seems terribly inefficient.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post, but I take issue with the claim that the Canada Line bodes well for P3s. The disruption along Cambie was a direct result of the P3 &#8212; Translink didn&#8217;t specify how the line was to be built, and the winning bidder chose cut-and-cover on a corridor where the expectation was that there would be a bored tunnel. The traffic disruptions on Cambie damaged Translink&#8217;s reputation, and will make a future Skytrain extension to UBC politically difficult (even though it will almost certainly be built as a bored tunnel).</p>
<p>I know there was also some controversy over the selection of incompatible track and vehicle technology for the Canada Line (vs. existing SkyTrain). The bidding process didn&#8217;t account for efficiencies derived from a uniform fleet of vehicles. So instead we got a completely different system that&#8217;s incompatible with all the existing infrastructure. Seems terribly inefficient.</p>
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		<title>By: EngineerScotty</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/17/vancouver-opens-canada-line-months-ahead-of-schedule/#comment-3911</link>
		<dc:creator>EngineerScotty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 16:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3308#comment-3911</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s worth noting that the Richmond spur of the line displaced a BRT lin which previously occupied the median of No 3 Road, the main commercial street in Richmond.

(Of course, said BRT was no longer rapid once it crossed the Fraser into Vancouver, and ran on the surface streets...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s worth noting that the Richmond spur of the line displaced a BRT lin which previously occupied the median of No 3 Road, the main commercial street in Richmond.</p>
<p>(Of course, said BRT was no longer rapid once it crossed the Fraser into Vancouver, and ran on the surface streets&#8230;)</p>
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