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	<title>Comments on: U.K.&#8217;s Network Rail Moves Forward with Route Choice for High-Speed 2</title>
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	<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/26/u-k-s-network-rail-moves-forward-with-route-choice-for-high-speed-2/</link>
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		<title>By: John W</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/26/u-k-s-network-rail-moves-forward-with-route-choice-for-high-speed-2/#comment-154676</link>
		<dc:creator>John W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jan 2011 08:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3698#comment-154676</guid>
		<description>Ummm, you&#039;ve never been to the UK, have you? There&#039;s already a comprehensive rail network here, with a fair whack of track already at what Americans would call high-speed (125mph) and thousands of stations. What would be the point of putting in true HSR lines and then shooting yourself in the foot by having trains constantly stopping? This just adds another layer to the current mix of fast, semi-fast and local services. 

Or put it this way: wikipedia has a list of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_towns_with_no_railway_station&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;largest UK towns without rail service&lt;/a&gt;: &quot;If one excludes towns located within conurbations, the largest British towns without direct access to a railway station are Blyth (36,000)...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ummm, you&#8217;ve never been to the UK, have you? There&#8217;s already a comprehensive rail network here, with a fair whack of track already at what Americans would call high-speed (125mph) and thousands of stations. What would be the point of putting in true HSR lines and then shooting yourself in the foot by having trains constantly stopping? This just adds another layer to the current mix of fast, semi-fast and local services. </p>
<p>Or put it this way: wikipedia has a list of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_towns_with_no_railway_station" rel="nofollow">largest UK towns without rail service</a>: &#8220;If one excludes towns located within conurbations, the largest British towns without direct access to a railway station are Blyth (36,000)&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: a garrett</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/26/u-k-s-network-rail-moves-forward-with-route-choice-for-high-speed-2/#comment-154299</link>
		<dc:creator>a garrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3698#comment-154299</guid>
		<description>What is the point of a railway with no stations ,they should be a twenty mile intervals so that many more people can benefit from it .This would increase the journey time but if we are to cut carbon we all have to accept that sacrifices must be made .While building the track include another track that everyone can use. ITS COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the point of a railway with no stations ,they should be a twenty mile intervals so that many more people can benefit from it .This would increase the journey time but if we are to cut carbon we all have to accept that sacrifices must be made .While building the track include another track that everyone can use. ITS COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Rail Innovator</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/26/u-k-s-network-rail-moves-forward-with-route-choice-for-high-speed-2/#comment-97673</link>
		<dc:creator>Rail Innovator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3698#comment-97673</guid>
		<description>No one here seems to mention the Maglev alternative as proposed by UK Ultraspeed. See their site http://www.500kmh.com for some comparisons to HS2. You have to read through the marketing(as they are trying to sell it) but the core of their comparison is correct.

I&#039;d say the geographical and infrastructural situation in the UK makes a compelling case for Maglev much more than anywhere else in Europe. 
From my research on the subject I&#039;m actually surprised that Maglev is ignored in the UK.

What is your opionion or attitude towards the UK Ultraspeed alternative?

PS: 
For those positive towards maglev, please sign the online petition by the International Maglev Board at www.pro-maglev.net.
There is also a private petition for the maglev case in the UK at http://www.gopetition.com/petition/39755.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one here seems to mention the Maglev alternative as proposed by UK Ultraspeed. See their site <a href="http://www.500kmh.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.500kmh.com</a> for some comparisons to HS2. You have to read through the marketing(as they are trying to sell it) but the core of their comparison is correct.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say the geographical and infrastructural situation in the UK makes a compelling case for Maglev much more than anywhere else in Europe.<br />
From my research on the subject I&#8217;m actually surprised that Maglev is ignored in the UK.</p>
<p>What is your opionion or attitude towards the UK Ultraspeed alternative?</p>
<p>PS:<br />
For those positive towards maglev, please sign the online petition by the International Maglev Board at <a href="http://www.pro-maglev.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.pro-maglev.net</a>.<br />
There is also a private petition for the maglev case in the UK at <a href="http://www.gopetition.com/petition/39755.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.gopetition.com/petition/39755.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Airport News</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/26/u-k-s-network-rail-moves-forward-with-route-choice-for-high-speed-2/#comment-40438</link>
		<dc:creator>Airport News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 10:32:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3698#comment-40438</guid>
		<description>&#039;Moves forward&#039; isn&#039;t a phrase I would use on this scheme, unless it has a &#039;slowly&#039; in front of it. This is seen as a panacea for &#039;fixing&#039; Heathrow - freeing up slots by taking domestic flights away - yet building work will not start until 2017 at the earliest. In the meantime Heathrow is full. I realise major projects like this take time, but come on guys, 7 years to plan it ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Moves forward&#8217; isn&#8217;t a phrase I would use on this scheme, unless it has a &#8216;slowly&#8217; in front of it. This is seen as a panacea for &#8216;fixing&#8217; Heathrow &#8211; freeing up slots by taking domestic flights away &#8211; yet building work will not start until 2017 at the earliest. In the meantime Heathrow is full. I realise major projects like this take time, but come on guys, 7 years to plan it ?</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/26/u-k-s-network-rail-moves-forward-with-route-choice-for-high-speed-2/#comment-22965</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 01:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3698#comment-22965</guid>
		<description>Nathanel -- To make several tremendous oversimplifications, the Scottish Nationalists are almost completely unlike any other nationalist movement.  Although they&#039;re fairly outspoken on several issues, they&#039;re also fairly moderate as a whole.  

DBX: Doesn&#039;t Euston have a few extremely long platforms to accommodate the sleeper services to Scotland?  AFAIK, those are the longest passenger trainsets used in the UK.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathanel &#8212; To make several tremendous oversimplifications, the Scottish Nationalists are almost completely unlike any other nationalist movement.  Although they&#8217;re fairly outspoken on several issues, they&#8217;re also fairly moderate as a whole.  </p>
<p>DBX: Doesn&#8217;t Euston have a few extremely long platforms to accommodate the sleeper services to Scotland?  AFAIK, those are the longest passenger trainsets used in the UK.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathanael Nerode</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/26/u-k-s-network-rail-moves-forward-with-route-choice-for-high-speed-2/#comment-8638</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathanael Nerode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 08:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3698#comment-8638</guid>
		<description>&quot;Do the Scottish Nationalists really support it? In other countries, regional nationalists don’t like having national infrastructure connect their region to the rest of the country – they claim it strengthens central government control of their region.&quot;

In Scotland, they claim it brings money into Scotland (and away from England).  :-)  Different attitude I guess.

I imagine the Scottish Executive would demand control over the portion of the railways within Scotland, as they pretty much control the rest of the Scottish railways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Do the Scottish Nationalists really support it? In other countries, regional nationalists don’t like having national infrastructure connect their region to the rest of the country – they claim it strengthens central government control of their region.&#8221;</p>
<p>In Scotland, they claim it brings money into Scotland (and away from England).  :-)  Different attitude I guess.</p>
<p>I imagine the Scottish Executive would demand control over the portion of the railways within Scotland, as they pretty much control the rest of the Scottish railways.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/26/u-k-s-network-rail-moves-forward-with-route-choice-for-high-speed-2/#comment-6445</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 21:08:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3698#comment-6445</guid>
		<description>First: are you sure that the LGV Nord has 3-minute headways? I looked at the schedules for Paris-Lille, Paris-Brussels, and Paris-London, and the closest thing to 3-minute headways that I found is that the Paris-Brussels trains leave 3 minutes before the Paris-Lille trains; however, overall headways are in the 6 tph peak region. Since it&#039;s common for express trains to leave just before local trains, I don&#039;t think it indicates capability to run 20 tph (which would be strange, seeing as how the Japanese are struggling with 13 on a lower-speed line). Conversely, commuter lines often offer 2-minute headways; low-speed intercity lines could in principle do the same, but there&#039;s never the demand.

Second, I know Britain isn&#039;t Japan. But it&#039;s not France, either. Its cities aren&#039;t scattered randomly in all directions relative to the capital. Most cities are located along two corridors, which could be combined into one if the previous HS2 proposal of crossing the Pennines before heading into Scotland is exercised. Furthermore, the two corridors are close to each other but without good connections from one to the other; this is a low-hanging fruit that France just doesn&#039;t have. Another way in which Britain is neither France nor Japan is that many of its legacy rail lines are fairly straight, which means there are many ROWs for serving central cities. Just staring at Google Maps shows to me that there are ways of having HS2 roughly follow the WCML to Manchester but with a mainline stop in central Birmingham.

Third, I stand corrected on the four-track part. I meant to talk about incremental upgrades, and got confused with the legacy Tokyo-Osaka and Paris-Lyon lines, both of which are double-tracked, and both of which came with four-tracking proposals as alternatives to HSR. There&#039;s no doubt British Rail invested a lot in incremental upgrades for its mainlines; other than the Acela and a few ICE lines, I don&#039;t think there&#039;s anywhere else in the world where trains run faster than 200 km/h on legacy track. The problem is that there&#039;s only so much you can get out of a line built in the 19th century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First: are you sure that the LGV Nord has 3-minute headways? I looked at the schedules for Paris-Lille, Paris-Brussels, and Paris-London, and the closest thing to 3-minute headways that I found is that the Paris-Brussels trains leave 3 minutes before the Paris-Lille trains; however, overall headways are in the 6 tph peak region. Since it&#8217;s common for express trains to leave just before local trains, I don&#8217;t think it indicates capability to run 20 tph (which would be strange, seeing as how the Japanese are struggling with 13 on a lower-speed line). Conversely, commuter lines often offer 2-minute headways; low-speed intercity lines could in principle do the same, but there&#8217;s never the demand.</p>
<p>Second, I know Britain isn&#8217;t Japan. But it&#8217;s not France, either. Its cities aren&#8217;t scattered randomly in all directions relative to the capital. Most cities are located along two corridors, which could be combined into one if the previous HS2 proposal of crossing the Pennines before heading into Scotland is exercised. Furthermore, the two corridors are close to each other but without good connections from one to the other; this is a low-hanging fruit that France just doesn&#8217;t have. Another way in which Britain is neither France nor Japan is that many of its legacy rail lines are fairly straight, which means there are many ROWs for serving central cities. Just staring at Google Maps shows to me that there are ways of having HS2 roughly follow the WCML to Manchester but with a mainline stop in central Birmingham.</p>
<p>Third, I stand corrected on the four-track part. I meant to talk about incremental upgrades, and got confused with the legacy Tokyo-Osaka and Paris-Lyon lines, both of which are double-tracked, and both of which came with four-tracking proposals as alternatives to HSR. There&#8217;s no doubt British Rail invested a lot in incremental upgrades for its mainlines; other than the Acela and a few ICE lines, I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anywhere else in the world where trains run faster than 200 km/h on legacy track. The problem is that there&#8217;s only so much you can get out of a line built in the 19th century.</p>
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		<title>By: DBX</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/26/u-k-s-network-rail-moves-forward-with-route-choice-for-high-speed-2/#comment-6442</link>
		<dc:creator>DBX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 19:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3698#comment-6442</guid>
		<description>Alon, British Rail quad-tracked WCML????   I think the LNWR took care of that in the 19th century, mostly.  And if what you&#039;re talking about is Trent Valley Four (the 12 or 13 mile stretch alleviating a long-standing bottleneck) from Network Rail&#039;s recent reconstruction, that was needed no matter what.  Unless, of course, you propose to shove freight and commuter on to high speed rail lines.  And what is it on frequency?  Is the existing WCML limited by low frequency, or blessed with high?  You can&#039;t have it both ways.  Of course, in the long run, nor can Network Rail, which is why they need BOTH the renovated WCML for local services and freight and a new HSR route for longer distance services.

Another point of information; minimum headways on TGV-Nord are three minutes.  Five is just the older line to Lyon.

Another point.  Britain isn&#039;t Japan.  The geography is different.  The cities aren&#039;t all neatly joined up in a row along a narrow coastal plain and high mountain ranges don&#039;t dictate routes.  The existing rail networks -- to which HSR will need to connect at major stations at the very least unless we&#039;re to have more park-and-ride disasters like Ebbsfleet -- don&#039;t follow the same pattern either.

I suggest that in general you try to better inform yourself about current operating conditions on rail networks, and think a little more coherently about what you&#039;d like to see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alon, British Rail quad-tracked WCML????   I think the LNWR took care of that in the 19th century, mostly.  And if what you&#8217;re talking about is Trent Valley Four (the 12 or 13 mile stretch alleviating a long-standing bottleneck) from Network Rail&#8217;s recent reconstruction, that was needed no matter what.  Unless, of course, you propose to shove freight and commuter on to high speed rail lines.  And what is it on frequency?  Is the existing WCML limited by low frequency, or blessed with high?  You can&#8217;t have it both ways.  Of course, in the long run, nor can Network Rail, which is why they need BOTH the renovated WCML for local services and freight and a new HSR route for longer distance services.</p>
<p>Another point of information; minimum headways on TGV-Nord are three minutes.  Five is just the older line to Lyon.</p>
<p>Another point.  Britain isn&#8217;t Japan.  The geography is different.  The cities aren&#8217;t all neatly joined up in a row along a narrow coastal plain and high mountain ranges don&#8217;t dictate routes.  The existing rail networks &#8212; to which HSR will need to connect at major stations at the very least unless we&#8217;re to have more park-and-ride disasters like Ebbsfleet &#8212; don&#8217;t follow the same pattern either.</p>
<p>I suggest that in general you try to better inform yourself about current operating conditions on rail networks, and think a little more coherently about what you&#8217;d like to see.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Barr</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/26/u-k-s-network-rail-moves-forward-with-route-choice-for-high-speed-2/#comment-6138</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Barr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 19:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3698#comment-6138</guid>
		<description>I am sure the planning for a new high speed rail system covering all the main cities from the south to the north and all the demographics appertaining to this proposed wonderful structure would be considered more profoundly by the rail engineering boffins and more expeditiously and definitely if they knew that the funding was already in position.

Surely this is a pre-requisite to any proposed project?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sure the planning for a new high speed rail system covering all the main cities from the south to the north and all the demographics appertaining to this proposed wonderful structure would be considered more profoundly by the rail engineering boffins and more expeditiously and definitely if they knew that the funding was already in position.</p>
<p>Surely this is a pre-requisite to any proposed project?</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/26/u-k-s-network-rail-moves-forward-with-route-choice-for-high-speed-2/#comment-5662</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3698#comment-5662</guid>
		<description>1. Fair enough - though trains of different heights can still be accommodated, allowing double-deckers. Trains of different widths require either extenders, which rail operators try to avoid and which to my knowledge have never been used on HSR, or dedicated platforms, which are a bad idea for flexibility reasons.

2. If this were Japan, then all trains would stop in both Birmingham and Manchester. The Japanese way of running high-speed trains is that the express trains stop in all major cities, while the local trains stop also at smaller cities; despite this stopping pattern, express trains in Japan are no slower than in France. A Shinkansen-style service would have all trains stop in London, Birmingham, and Manchester - even trains headed for Scotland - and local trains also stop in Milton Keynes, Coventry, Stoke-on-Trent, and Preston.

3. Low-speed lines have higher capacity than high-speed lines, because their stopping distances are much smaller. A well-run low-speed two-track line can achieve 30 tph with cutting edge signaling, and 24 without. High-speed lines are limited to about 12, assuming either identical stopping patterns or perfect scheduling: the Tokaido Shinkansen runs 13 tph, but it&#039;s limited to 270 km/h due to its age.

4. Where British Rail stagnated was in its decision to quad-track the WCML instead of build a new HSR line paralleling it. Both the LGV Sud-Est and the Tokaido Shinkansen were conceived as not just speed enhancers, but also relief lines for overloaded two-track rail lines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Fair enough &#8211; though trains of different heights can still be accommodated, allowing double-deckers. Trains of different widths require either extenders, which rail operators try to avoid and which to my knowledge have never been used on HSR, or dedicated platforms, which are a bad idea for flexibility reasons.</p>
<p>2. If this were Japan, then all trains would stop in both Birmingham and Manchester. The Japanese way of running high-speed trains is that the express trains stop in all major cities, while the local trains stop also at smaller cities; despite this stopping pattern, express trains in Japan are no slower than in France. A Shinkansen-style service would have all trains stop in London, Birmingham, and Manchester &#8211; even trains headed for Scotland &#8211; and local trains also stop in Milton Keynes, Coventry, Stoke-on-Trent, and Preston.</p>
<p>3. Low-speed lines have higher capacity than high-speed lines, because their stopping distances are much smaller. A well-run low-speed two-track line can achieve 30 tph with cutting edge signaling, and 24 without. High-speed lines are limited to about 12, assuming either identical stopping patterns or perfect scheduling: the Tokaido Shinkansen runs 13 tph, but it&#8217;s limited to 270 km/h due to its age.</p>
<p>4. Where British Rail stagnated was in its decision to quad-track the WCML instead of build a new HSR line paralleling it. Both the LGV Sud-Est and the Tokaido Shinkansen were conceived as not just speed enhancers, but also relief lines for overloaded two-track rail lines.</p>
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