Comments on: Fighting Ourselves Over Funding for Intracity Versus Intercity Transportation http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/27/fighting-ourselves-over-funding-for-intracity-versus-intercity-transportation/ Sun, 14 Mar 2010 00:41:41 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Alon Levy http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/27/fighting-ourselves-over-funding-for-intracity-versus-intercity-transportation/#comment-5891 Alon Levy Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:47:53 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3713#comment-5891 Jerzy, I'm not sure why you're using the fact that cities have congestion as a way of arguing against me. I'm not saying that intraurban travel should be car-based; I'm saying that based on passenger volume metrics, investing a large fraction of transit spending in HSR is good policy. (Even the problem of last mile can be mitigated - many US cities already have commuter rail that's good at getting people from where they live to the downtown train station, if not so good at getting them to their jobs.) Jerzy, I’m not sure why you’re using the fact that cities have congestion as a way of arguing against me. I’m not saying that intraurban travel should be car-based; I’m saying that based on passenger volume metrics, investing a large fraction of transit spending in HSR is good policy. (Even the problem of last mile can be mitigated – many US cities already have commuter rail that’s good at getting people from where they live to the downtown train station, if not so good at getting them to their jobs.)

]]> By: jerzy http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/27/fighting-ourselves-over-funding-for-intracity-versus-intercity-transportation/#comment-5877 jerzy Wed, 02 Sep 2009 03:39:14 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3713#comment-5877 I wonder if Alon has noticed the difference between the geography and size and urban densities in Japan, as compared to the US? The worst congestion and negative impacts of autos are, by far, within cities and metropolitan regions. They are in great need of solutions that can begin to reduce their impacts (not more rail transit). More and more autos, however green, are not the answer either. Seems there is a need for innovation as described so well in the publication entitled Tomorrow's Transportation. Google it to see what it recommends. I wonder if Alon has noticed the difference between the geography and size and urban densities in Japan, as compared to the US?
The worst congestion and negative impacts of autos are, by far, within cities and metropolitan regions. They are in great need of
solutions that can begin to reduce their impacts (not more rail transit). More and more autos, however green, are not the answer either. Seems there is a need for innovation as described so well in the publication entitled Tomorrow’s Transportation. Google it to see what it recommends.

]]> By: Miranda http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/27/fighting-ourselves-over-funding-for-intracity-versus-intercity-transportation/#comment-5850 Miranda Tue, 01 Sep 2009 21:33:01 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3713#comment-5850 That re-mix on the St. Louis Urban Workshop is priceless! http://www.stlurbanworkshop.com/2009/08/newsweeks-high-speed-boondoggle-by.html That re-mix on the St. Louis Urban Workshop is priceless!
http://www.stlurbanworkshop.com/2009/08/newsweeks-high-speed-boondoggle-by.html

]]> By: Alon Levy http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/27/fighting-ourselves-over-funding-for-intracity-versus-intercity-transportation/#comment-5731 Alon Levy Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:12:21 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3713#comment-5731 In terms of the number of passengers, intraurban travel has much greater volume than interurban travel. However, this is not necessarily true in terms of passenger-km or revenue. For JR East, whose commuter network is the world's largest, the Shinkansen accounts for 2% of the total number of passengers, 15% of the total number of passenger-km, and 27% of the revenues. For JR West, the numbers are 3.5%, 29%, and 44%. In terms of the number of passengers, intraurban travel has much greater volume than interurban travel. However, this is not necessarily true in terms of passenger-km or revenue. For JR East, whose commuter network is the world’s largest, the Shinkansen accounts for 2% of the total number of passengers, 15% of the total number of passenger-km, and 27% of the revenues. For JR West, the numbers are 3.5%, 29%, and 44%.

]]> By: jerzy http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/27/fighting-ourselves-over-funding-for-intracity-versus-intercity-transportation/#comment-5720 jerzy Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:46:22 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3713#comment-5720 Another call for "balance" without defining the current situation. Intraurban travel is probably at least 100 times greater than interurban travel, in volume. So if funds are to be allocated between them, what would "balance" look like? And, what do you do about the first and last mile problem, since only a few people want a destination in the historic downtown and often want to leave from "home". Studies of air travellers have shown, over and over, again that only a small fraction of such travellers have an origin or destination in a historic downtown. That's one reason that cities that have a rail connection between downtown and the airport tend t o have very little patronage, other than a few airport workers. If you must have a railroad, choose a modern one that can service multiple origins and destinations. CyberTran is an example: www.cybertran.com Another call for “balance” without defining the current situation.
Intraurban travel is probably at least 100 times greater than interurban travel, in volume. So if funds are to be allocated between them, what would “balance” look like? And, what do you do about the first and last mile problem, since only a few people want a destination in the historic downtown and often want to leave from
“home”. Studies of air travellers have shown, over and over, again that only a small fraction of such travellers have an origin or destination in a historic downtown. That’s one reason that cities that have a rail connection between downtown and the airport tend t o have very little patronage, other than a few airport workers. If you must have a railroad, choose a modern one that can service multiple origins and destinations. CyberTran is an example: http://www.cybertran.com

]]> By: TransitCommuter http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/27/fighting-ourselves-over-funding-for-intracity-versus-intercity-transportation/#comment-5705 TransitCommuter Mon, 31 Aug 2009 15:56:02 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3713#comment-5705 @Sean "And the train is much faster and can hold WAY more people. HSR> intercity bus" However when you compare the price of a bus ticket with that on the new high speed rail, I guarantee the bus will be much cheaper. It really depends if people will be willing to pay more for comfort and time saved by taking the HSR. In the current economy, most would opt for the bus. @Sean “And the train is much faster and can hold WAY more people. HSR> intercity bus”

However when you compare the price of a bus ticket with that on the new high speed rail, I guarantee the bus will be much cheaper. It really depends if people will be willing to pay more for comfort and time saved by taking the HSR. In the current economy, most would opt for the bus.

]]> By: Nathanael http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/27/fighting-ourselves-over-funding-for-intracity-versus-intercity-transportation/#comment-5587 Nathanael Sun, 30 Aug 2009 02:54:02 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3713#comment-5587 And as someone else noted, cars are only "fast" for short trips if there's no congestion. In rush hour, cars are intensely slow for short trips and can often be beat by walking.... So due to comfort and speed, for some 0-200 mile trips, trains win out over all cars. Not for all such trips, but definitely for some of them. And as someone else noted, cars are only “fast” for short trips if there’s no congestion. In rush hour, cars are intensely slow for short trips and can often be beat by walking….

So due to comfort and speed, for some 0-200 mile trips, trains win out over all cars. Not for all such trips, but definitely for some of them.

]]> By: Nathanael http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/27/fighting-ourselves-over-funding-for-intracity-versus-intercity-transportation/#comment-5585 Nathanael Sun, 30 Aug 2009 02:49:39 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3713#comment-5585 I disagree with your assessment of the "convenience" of cars. *You have to drive them*. This is annoying compared to having a professional driver. The annoyance gets worse the longer the trip is. Perhaps you need a fourth column: comfort. Cars are pretty comfortable at 50 miles, unpleasant at 200 miles, and very unpleasant at 600 miles. (For all except car enthusiasts, that is.) I disagree with your assessment of the “convenience” of cars.
*You have to drive them*. This is annoying compared to having a professional driver. The annoyance gets worse the longer the trip is.

Perhaps you need a fourth column: comfort. Cars are pretty comfortable at 50 miles, unpleasant at 200 miles, and very unpleasant at 600 miles. (For all except car enthusiasts, that is.)

]]> By: Alon Levy http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/27/fighting-ourselves-over-funding-for-intracity-versus-intercity-transportation/#comment-5583 Alon Levy Sun, 30 Aug 2009 02:41:47 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3713#comment-5583 Lauren, if I had $975 to spare for conference registration fees, I'd probably have better use for spare cash, such as lobby the local politicians near New York to give a damn about the NEC. Lauren, if I had $975 to spare for conference registration fees, I’d probably have better use for spare cash, such as lobby the local politicians near New York to give a damn about the NEC.

]]> By: Lauren http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/27/fighting-ourselves-over-funding-for-intracity-versus-intercity-transportation/#comment-5566 Lauren Sat, 29 Aug 2009 23:47:56 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=3713#comment-5566 I would urge everyone who is interested in high speed rail to attend the upcoming High Speed Rail 2009 Conference in Washington DC this coming October 22-23. There will be lots of discussion of exactly what has been talked about here, and the top experts on HSR from around the world will present how it can change America for the better: http://www.ushsr.com/events/highspeedrail2009.html I would urge everyone who is interested in high speed rail to attend the upcoming High Speed Rail 2009 Conference in Washington DC this coming October 22-23. There will be lots of discussion of exactly what has been talked about here, and the top experts on HSR from around the world will present how it can change America for the better:
http://www.ushsr.com/events/highspeedrail2009.html

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