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	<title>Comments on: Securing the Financial Health of New High-Speed Projects</title>
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	<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/22/securing-the-financial-health-of-new-high-speed-projects/</link>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/22/securing-the-financial-health-of-new-high-speed-projects/#comment-24608</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4077#comment-24608</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;bzcat: &quot;The financial incentive of the private company that constructed the line was not properly aligned with the long term viability of the line.&quot;&lt;/b&gt;

bzcat&#039;s comment was in the right direction, but the reason given is wrong.  The financial incentives weren&#039;t aligned because the holding company in charge of running THSR&#039;s main shareholders were the very companies doing the construction.  They didn&#039;t care about bankrupting the company because they saw a safe bet with overcharging the holding company for construction, making their dough then, and then allowing the holding company to go into bankruptcy.  In the accidental case the holding company could actually make money, they would make an even bigger profit.

But if we look at the total benefit to society:
Taiwan High Speed Rail is an amazing transportation system when you are moving long distances north-south through Taiwan.  It makes Taiwan, already at a very high density and without US-style suburban sprawl, very competitive in Asia with transport from Taipei to Kaohsiung in only an hour and a half.  Many of the stations in the middle are outside city centers and that is a very big drawback, but even in its form now, it is completely revolutionizing transportation in Taiwan.  The domestic airliners are almost all gone with limited service only to areas without THSR.  The reason for the loss is only that the ticket fares and the real estate development can&#039;t capture the entirety of benefit of everyone that has done well because of THSR in terms of profit, but if you looked at it from a societal perspective, it is a total win.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>bzcat: &#8220;The financial incentive of the private company that constructed the line was not properly aligned with the long term viability of the line.&#8221;</b></p>
<p>bzcat&#8217;s comment was in the right direction, but the reason given is wrong.  The financial incentives weren&#8217;t aligned because the holding company in charge of running THSR&#8217;s main shareholders were the very companies doing the construction.  They didn&#8217;t care about bankrupting the company because they saw a safe bet with overcharging the holding company for construction, making their dough then, and then allowing the holding company to go into bankruptcy.  In the accidental case the holding company could actually make money, they would make an even bigger profit.</p>
<p>But if we look at the total benefit to society:<br />
Taiwan High Speed Rail is an amazing transportation system when you are moving long distances north-south through Taiwan.  It makes Taiwan, already at a very high density and without US-style suburban sprawl, very competitive in Asia with transport from Taipei to Kaohsiung in only an hour and a half.  Many of the stations in the middle are outside city centers and that is a very big drawback, but even in its form now, it is completely revolutionizing transportation in Taiwan.  The domestic airliners are almost all gone with limited service only to areas without THSR.  The reason for the loss is only that the ticket fares and the real estate development can&#8217;t capture the entirety of benefit of everyone that has done well because of THSR in terms of profit, but if you looked at it from a societal perspective, it is a total win.</p>
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		<title>By: Adirondacker12800</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/22/securing-the-financial-health-of-new-high-speed-projects/#comment-8705</link>
		<dc:creator>Adirondacker12800</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4077#comment-8705</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;That bit of corruption sounds a lot like how many railroads got built in the US–except in most cases the lines are still in private hands.&lt;/em&gt;

The bankruptcy part sounds familiar too. 

&lt;em&gt;...that not only requires a majority public construction outlay but also an existing local/regional transit network financed by government...&lt;/em&gt;

Transit systems around the long distance train station are nice to have. No one worries about having mass transit to the airport. No one every says &quot;we shouldn&#039;t expand the airport until there&#039;s light rail to the airport&quot; or anything like that. 
Wilmington has almost no mass transit other than what happens at the combined SEPTA-Amtrak station. Wilmington is Amtrak&#039;s 11th busiest station. People manage to get to and from the station. The main complaint up here is that there&#039;s no way to get to the Amtrak station in Rennselaer, other than to use a car. There are a few buses a day as there are in Wilmington, supposedly there&#039;s a bus route that stops there once in the morning on an outbound trip from Albany but.never goes by inbound. Albany is Amtrak&#039;s tenth busiest station. Both Wilmington and Albany have an advantage. It&#039;s faster to take the train than it is to drive or fly. So people take the train even though it doesn&#039;t have mass transit to the station.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>That bit of corruption sounds a lot like how many railroads got built in the US–except in most cases the lines are still in private hands.</em></p>
<p>The bankruptcy part sounds familiar too. </p>
<p><em>&#8230;that not only requires a majority public construction outlay but also an existing local/regional transit network financed by government&#8230;</em></p>
<p>Transit systems around the long distance train station are nice to have. No one worries about having mass transit to the airport. No one every says &#8220;we shouldn&#8217;t expand the airport until there&#8217;s light rail to the airport&#8221; or anything like that.<br />
Wilmington has almost no mass transit other than what happens at the combined SEPTA-Amtrak station. Wilmington is Amtrak&#8217;s 11th busiest station. People manage to get to and from the station. The main complaint up here is that there&#8217;s no way to get to the Amtrak station in Rennselaer, other than to use a car. There are a few buses a day as there are in Wilmington, supposedly there&#8217;s a bus route that stops there once in the morning on an outbound trip from Albany but.never goes by inbound. Albany is Amtrak&#8217;s tenth busiest station. Both Wilmington and Albany have an advantage. It&#8217;s faster to take the train than it is to drive or fly. So people take the train even though it doesn&#8217;t have mass transit to the station.</p>
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		<title>By: -Dwid</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/22/securing-the-financial-health-of-new-high-speed-projects/#comment-8457</link>
		<dc:creator>-Dwid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 04:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4077#comment-8457</guid>
		<description>Strange. Direct linking doesn&#039;t work but copy&amp;paste does. Whatever, the post &quot;Megaregional transit&quot; is under 
http://www.ctchouston.org/intermodality/
or alternatively
http://www.ctchouston.org/intermodality/2009/09/22/megaregional-transit

By the way, that post brings me to another aspect that is not so off-topic. I wonder whether it&#039;s really fair to have a private company &quot;skim&quot; some of the profit from HSR that not only requires a majority public construction outlay but also an existing local/regional transit network financed by government. Hmm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strange. Direct linking doesn&#8217;t work but copy&amp;paste does. Whatever, the post &#8220;Megaregional transit&#8221; is under<br />
<a href="http://www.ctchouston.org/intermodality/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ctchouston.org/intermodality/</a><br />
or alternatively<br />
<a href="http://www.ctchouston.org/intermodality/2009/09/22/megaregional-transit" rel="nofollow">http://www.ctchouston.org/intermodality/2009/09/22/megaregional-transit</a></p>
<p>By the way, that post brings me to another aspect that is not so off-topic. I wonder whether it&#8217;s really fair to have a private company &#8220;skim&#8221; some of the profit from HSR that not only requires a majority public construction outlay but also an existing local/regional transit network financed by government. Hmm.</p>
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		<title>By: Woody</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/22/securing-the-financial-health-of-new-high-speed-projects/#comment-8361</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4077#comment-8361</guid>
		<description>Dwid -- Off topic or not, your link doesn&#039;t work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dwid &#8212; Off topic or not, your link doesn&#8217;t work.</p>
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		<title>By: -Dwid</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/22/securing-the-financial-health-of-new-high-speed-projects/#comment-8305</link>
		<dc:creator>-Dwid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4077#comment-8305</guid>
		<description>OT: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ctchouston.org/intermodality/2009/09/22/megaregional-transit/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Yesterday, Christof Spieler wrote about the passenger rail and transit status quo in a post about the viable HSR megaregions.&lt;/a&gt; Very good maps. It also shows how thin the existing service is. It makes one wonder whether there will be good feeder service to put HSR on top of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OT: <a href="http://www.ctchouston.org/intermodality/2009/09/22/megaregional-transit/" rel="nofollow">Yesterday, Christof Spieler wrote about the passenger rail and transit status quo in a post about the viable HSR megaregions.</a> Very good maps. It also shows how thin the existing service is. It makes one wonder whether there will be good feeder service to put HSR on top of.</p>
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		<title>By: EngineerScotty</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/22/securing-the-financial-health-of-new-high-speed-projects/#comment-8303</link>
		<dc:creator>EngineerScotty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4077#comment-8303</guid>
		<description>That bit of corruption sounds a lot like how many railroads got built in the US--except in most cases the lines are still in private hands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That bit of corruption sounds a lot like how many railroads got built in the US&#8211;except in most cases the lines are still in private hands.</p>
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		<title>By: bzcat</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/22/securing-the-financial-health-of-new-high-speed-projects/#comment-8285</link>
		<dc:creator>bzcat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4077#comment-8285</guid>
		<description>All the commentary on the fallout of Taiwan HSR bailout by the Govt missed the important point: the project was setup to fail financially almost on purpose by the private company that build the line.

The Taiwan HSR was constructed using build-operate-transfer model with a 35 year initial lease. What this means is that the Govt will end up owning the line regardless of what happens after 35 years of operation. However, &lt;b&gt;the Taiwan High Speed Rail Corp (THSRC) was also granted 50 year exclusive rights to develop properties around the train stations... land that were given to it for free&lt;/b&gt;. So there was a huge financial incentive for THSRC to construct the line as fast as possible with sub prime loans because it will allow them to develop the properties sooner. Essentially, &lt;b&gt;THSRC was really in it for the real estate speculation&lt;/b&gt;... the HSR line itself was a mean to the end, not the main financial interest of THSRC. 

The financial incentive of the private company that constructed the line was not properly aligned with the long term viability of the line. 

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/en/about/ab_comp.asp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All the commentary on the fallout of Taiwan HSR bailout by the Govt missed the important point: the project was setup to fail financially almost on purpose by the private company that build the line.</p>
<p>The Taiwan HSR was constructed using build-operate-transfer model with a 35 year initial lease. What this means is that the Govt will end up owning the line regardless of what happens after 35 years of operation. However, <b>the Taiwan High Speed Rail Corp (THSRC) was also granted 50 year exclusive rights to develop properties around the train stations&#8230; land that were given to it for free</b>. So there was a huge financial incentive for THSRC to construct the line as fast as possible with sub prime loans because it will allow them to develop the properties sooner. Essentially, <b>THSRC was really in it for the real estate speculation</b>&#8230; the HSR line itself was a mean to the end, not the main financial interest of THSRC. </p>
<p>The financial incentive of the private company that constructed the line was not properly aligned with the long term viability of the line. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.thsrc.com.tw/en/about/ab_comp.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.thsrc.com.tw/en/about/ab_comp.asp</a></p>
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		<title>By: Glen</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/22/securing-the-financial-health-of-new-high-speed-projects/#comment-8259</link>
		<dc:creator>Glen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4077#comment-8259</guid>
		<description>The private/parternship was pushed hard for inclusion by Governor
Schwarzenegger for his support for the bond . The bond issue amount was never raised since its first draft back in 2002 and now covers less of the cost of construction. unless the Federal funding covers 80% we will need some amount of private/public pension investment to finish the system. its far less than the others that used this plan so its more
workable no matter what the anti-HSR crowd  shouts ie...&quot;no  one is going to invest in this.&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The private/parternship was pushed hard for inclusion by Governor<br />
Schwarzenegger for his support for the bond . The bond issue amount was never raised since its first draft back in 2002 and now covers less of the cost of construction. unless the Federal funding covers 80% we will need some amount of private/public pension investment to finish the system. its far less than the others that used this plan so its more<br />
workable no matter what the anti-HSR crowd  shouts ie&#8230;&#8221;no  one is going to invest in this.&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: calwatch</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/22/securing-the-financial-health-of-new-high-speed-projects/#comment-8234</link>
		<dc:creator>calwatch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 06:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4077#comment-8234</guid>
		<description>The other issue with Taiwan that people don&#039;t mention were the teething issues in starting up the rail. There were rides that felt like roller coasters with sections of high speed followed by sections of moderate speed, switching problems, locating stations in major cities like Taichung and Hsinchu out of the city center and adjacent to the regular speed rail stations, and so forth. Most of the initial problems were ironed out after a year or so, but regular speed rail has always been popular and express buses are luxurious and useful when it is not a holiday weekend. The other issue is the hypersensitivity of the Taiwanese media. They have three times as many all news networks as the US, most of which show rolling news, meaning that the casual viewer might think that HSR is unsafe or a failure when in reality they are just rerunning the same story over and over again.

 Overall if the line were given a few more years to counteract negative public perception of the first year, on a less accelerated payment schedule, it would like still remain in private hands. For the government, it is a counterweight to freeway expansion. Traffic in both the big cities and the &quot;suburbs&quot; (which are nothing like the ones in the US or Canada) is atrocious at all hours of the day, and there is never any parking unless you go to a big box store. Most Taiwanese use scooters or motorcycles for day to day commuting, but keep a car for visiting the country or big errands. This will help quell the demand for more automobiles, which the island does not need.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other issue with Taiwan that people don&#8217;t mention were the teething issues in starting up the rail. There were rides that felt like roller coasters with sections of high speed followed by sections of moderate speed, switching problems, locating stations in major cities like Taichung and Hsinchu out of the city center and adjacent to the regular speed rail stations, and so forth. Most of the initial problems were ironed out after a year or so, but regular speed rail has always been popular and express buses are luxurious and useful when it is not a holiday weekend. The other issue is the hypersensitivity of the Taiwanese media. They have three times as many all news networks as the US, most of which show rolling news, meaning that the casual viewer might think that HSR is unsafe or a failure when in reality they are just rerunning the same story over and over again.</p>
<p> Overall if the line were given a few more years to counteract negative public perception of the first year, on a less accelerated payment schedule, it would like still remain in private hands. For the government, it is a counterweight to freeway expansion. Traffic in both the big cities and the &#8220;suburbs&#8221; (which are nothing like the ones in the US or Canada) is atrocious at all hours of the day, and there is never any parking unless you go to a big box store. Most Taiwanese use scooters or motorcycles for day to day commuting, but keep a car for visiting the country or big errands. This will help quell the demand for more automobiles, which the island does not need.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/22/securing-the-financial-health-of-new-high-speed-projects/#comment-8213</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4077#comment-8213</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the low-ridership routes in question were like Chicago-Des Moines. They were more like Des Moines-Kansas City: point-to-point routes connecting small cities, which the legacy airlines have replaced by a hub-and-spoke system; Southwest retains its point-to-point structure, but without deregulation it would never have been more than a regional Texan airline.

I disagree with your postage example. Mail is a basic form of communications. I wouldn&#039;t mind government subsidies to help the poor purchase computers and cell phones, either. However, the plane is an optional mode of travel, which the government should not subsidize any more than it pays people to buy cars.

Public transit and roads don&#039;t lose money because they&#039;re fair. They lose money because of overexpansion - commuter rail overexpanded in the 1920s and 30s, and roads overexpanded in the 1950s and 60s. In neither case did this expansion do much to serve the poor, who were cut off from commuter rail by high prices and were later evicted to make room for highways serving the rich. Modern-day urban transit loses money for completely different reasons, namely that it&#039;s badly run and that the government subsidizes the competition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the low-ridership routes in question were like Chicago-Des Moines. They were more like Des Moines-Kansas City: point-to-point routes connecting small cities, which the legacy airlines have replaced by a hub-and-spoke system; Southwest retains its point-to-point structure, but without deregulation it would never have been more than a regional Texan airline.</p>
<p>I disagree with your postage example. Mail is a basic form of communications. I wouldn&#8217;t mind government subsidies to help the poor purchase computers and cell phones, either. However, the plane is an optional mode of travel, which the government should not subsidize any more than it pays people to buy cars.</p>
<p>Public transit and roads don&#8217;t lose money because they&#8217;re fair. They lose money because of overexpansion &#8211; commuter rail overexpanded in the 1920s and 30s, and roads overexpanded in the 1950s and 60s. In neither case did this expansion do much to serve the poor, who were cut off from commuter rail by high prices and were later evicted to make room for highways serving the rich. Modern-day urban transit loses money for completely different reasons, namely that it&#8217;s badly run and that the government subsidizes the competition.</p>
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