Comments on: Implementing Streetcars Demands Consideration of the Way Traffic Works http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/08/implementing-streetcars-demands-consideration-of-the-way-traffic-works/ Sat, 11 Feb 2012 00:43:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: M1EK http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/08/implementing-streetcars-demands-consideration-of-the-way-traffic-works/#comment-37655 M1EK Wed, 07 Apr 2010 18:29:24 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4806#comment-37655 Lucy, those same advantages exist with the standard city bus - with the added advantage that a bus can manuever around an obstruction in traffic. See Jarrett Walker for more on the mobility myth in the mixed-traffic streetcar... Lucy, those same advantages exist with the standard city bus – with the added advantage that a bus can manuever around an obstruction in traffic. See Jarrett Walker for more on the mobility myth in the mixed-traffic streetcar…

]]> By: Lucy http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/08/implementing-streetcars-demands-consideration-of-the-way-traffic-works/#comment-37620 Lucy Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:28:05 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4806#comment-37620 The advantage of streetcars is not that they go faster than a car; it's that you don't need to deal with a car on either end of the trip. In urban environments, most of the time spent in a short distance trip is spent in getting the car out of one parking spot and putting it into another at the other end. A streetcar running in mixed traffic produces a shorter overall trip time because it eliminates car-homing on both ends. Intersections can be timed, designed, and controlled to manage all the worries expressed in this post. Light rail is wonderful for intermediate distances, but for really urban places, streetcars allow a park-once or even park-never mobility within the urban area. It's a walk-extender, not a commuter car-replaement. The advantage of streetcars is not that they go faster than a car; it’s that you don’t need to deal with a car on either end of the trip. In urban environments, most of the time spent in a short distance trip is spent in getting the car out of one parking spot and putting it into another at the other end. A streetcar running in mixed traffic produces a shorter overall trip time because it eliminates car-homing on both ends.

Intersections can be timed, designed, and controlled to manage all the worries expressed in this post. Light rail is wonderful for intermediate distances, but for really urban places, streetcars allow a park-once or even park-never mobility within the urban area. It’s a walk-extender, not a commuter car-replaement.

]]> By: Juniperhouse http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/08/implementing-streetcars-demands-consideration-of-the-way-traffic-works/#comment-21231 Juniperhouse Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:24:11 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4806#comment-21231 The REAL answer is to slap a $4/gallon tax on liquid fuels. This will have multiple beneficial effects, and provide funding for myriad transportation improvements. Claims that such a tax would destroy the economy are hogwash--European tax on fuels is at that level, and Europe has a thriving public transport system and a thriving economy. We cannot fix our problems by simply allowing 'demand' to overwhelm practicality and rationality--as we have done for a century now. Street railways move people efficiently, and autos do not. The less auto travel the better for the environment, society and everybody. The REAL answer is to slap a $4/gallon tax on liquid fuels. This will have multiple beneficial effects, and provide funding for myriad transportation improvements. Claims that such a tax would destroy the economy are hogwash–European tax on fuels is at that level, and Europe has a thriving public transport system and a thriving economy.

We cannot fix our problems by simply allowing ‘demand’ to overwhelm practicality and rationality–as we have done for a century now. Street railways move people efficiently, and autos do not. The less auto travel the better for the environment, society and everybody.

]]> By: Max Wyss http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/08/implementing-streetcars-demands-consideration-of-the-way-traffic-works/#comment-21076 Max Wyss Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:38:06 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4806#comment-21076 To D.M. Johnston, message 44: It is more than common that the same line acts as streetcar on some sections and as LRT on others. Therefore, it is not really a way to make a difference. A good example would be line 10 in Zürich, which is pretty much a streetcar line between Hauptbahnhof and Leutschenbach, and LRT between Leutschenbach and the airport. So, what is it? The term "Tram" or "Tramway" is used in some areas in Europe, others are using (literally translated) "Street railroad". To D.M. Johnston, message 44: It is more than common that the same line acts as streetcar on some sections and as LRT on others. Therefore, it is not really a way to make a difference. A good example would be line 10 in Zürich, which is pretty much a streetcar line between Hauptbahnhof and Leutschenbach, and LRT between Leutschenbach and the airport. So, what is it?

The term “Tram” or “Tramway” is used in some areas in Europe, others are using (literally translated) “Street railroad”.

]]> By: Ocean Railroader http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/08/implementing-streetcars-demands-consideration-of-the-way-traffic-works/#comment-21063 Ocean Railroader Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:56:23 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4806#comment-21063 The City of Richmond VA old streetcar ran down the ceters of the streets in the city and in the county side before the time of paved roads. When the roads were paved in the 1920's many of the streets built four lane wide streets with cirb and gutters on each side of the streetcars sealing many of them running down the center of the street off from traffic in the 1930's and 1940's. When the streetcar lines were abonadoned many of them were left as grassy strips or turned into a extra set of lanes. If light rail returns then they could close the extra pair of lanes in the street and turn them back into streetcar lanes and open up the grassy centers of the streets for streetcars again. I would suport the idea of turning a tarffic lane into a streetcar lane consdering how rare streetcars are and how common car based things are. The City of Richmond VA old streetcar ran down the ceters of the streets in the city and in the county side before the time of paved roads. When the roads were paved in the 1920′s many of the streets built four lane wide streets with cirb and gutters on each side of the streetcars sealing many of them running down the center of the street off from traffic in the 1930′s and 1940′s. When the streetcar lines were abonadoned many of them were left as grassy strips or turned into a extra set of lanes.

If light rail returns then they could close the extra pair of lanes in the street and turn them back into streetcar lanes and open up the grassy centers of the streets for streetcars again.

I would suport the idea of turning a tarffic lane into a streetcar lane consdering how rare streetcars are and how common car based things are.

]]> By: Alon Levy http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/08/implementing-streetcars-demands-consideration-of-the-way-traffic-works/#comment-21056 Alon Levy Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:19:14 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4806#comment-21056 What North American cities are you thinking of? I'm asking because some cities, such as Calgary, Portland, and Jersey City, physically separated most of its LRT from other traffic but did not grade-separate it. Those cities' light rail systems have short streetcar-mode segments downtown, but elsewhere run in freeway medians or on abandoned mainline rail. What North American cities are you thinking of? I’m asking because some cities, such as Calgary, Portland, and Jersey City, physically separated most of its LRT from other traffic but did not grade-separate it. Those cities’ light rail systems have short streetcar-mode segments downtown, but elsewhere run in freeway medians or on abandoned mainline rail.

]]> By: D. M. Johnston http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/08/implementing-streetcars-demands-consideration-of-the-way-traffic-works/#comment-21054 D. M. Johnston Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:00:53 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4806#comment-21054 In Europe, the difference between LRT and a tram, is the quality of rights-of-ways, with light rail operating on a reserved rights-of-way, which can be as complex as a lawned boulevard or as simple as a HOV lane with rails. Once LRT is grade separated, it becomes a light-metro and loses most of the cost advantages of LRT. A streetcar is a tram that operates in mixed traffic with little or no reserved rights-of-ways, nor signal priority at intersections. In Europe the the term streetcar is not used; instead the term tram is used. A tram operates on a tramway and has a legal right to operate on the road. In North America there has been much effort by planners and transit engineers to morph LRT as a light-metro, by grade separating it, which makes it more expensive to build, while at the same time, less attractive to customers.. We must strive to keep the light (light in costs) in light rail or we will make the mode to costly to build. http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/is-lrt-becoming-the-new-light-metro/ In Europe, the difference between LRT and a tram, is the quality of rights-of-ways, with light rail operating on a reserved rights-of-way, which can be as complex as a lawned boulevard or as simple as a HOV lane with rails. Once LRT is grade separated, it becomes a light-metro and loses most of the cost advantages of LRT.

A streetcar is a tram that operates in mixed traffic with little or no reserved rights-of-ways, nor signal priority at intersections.

In Europe the the term streetcar is not used; instead the term tram is used. A tram operates on a tramway and has a legal right to operate on the road.

In North America there has been much effort by planners and transit engineers to morph LRT as a light-metro, by grade separating it, which makes it more expensive to build, while at the same time, less attractive to customers..

We must strive to keep the light (light in costs) in light rail or we will make the mode to costly to build.

http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/is-lrt-becoming-the-new-light-metro/

]]> By: Max Wyss http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/08/implementing-streetcars-demands-consideration-of-the-way-traffic-works/#comment-20941 Max Wyss Sun, 13 Dec 2009 23:57:36 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4806#comment-20941 To W. K. Lis, message 41: Are those stops where traffic is stopped behind the streetcar stops with a platform, or are passengers stepping out onto the traffic lane? To W. K. Lis, message 41:

Are those stops where traffic is stopped behind the streetcar stops with a platform, or are passengers stepping out onto the traffic lane?

]]> By: BruceMcF http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/08/implementing-streetcars-demands-consideration-of-the-way-traffic-works/#comment-20934 BruceMcF Sun, 13 Dec 2009 21:57:41 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4806#comment-20934 For me, one of the most appealing streetcar alignment options is to allocate two lanes of a trunk to bus lane, with the car traffic ONLY running the opposite direction in the facing lane(s). Next street over is the one-way car traffic that way and the one way bus traffic the opposite way. Then put the streetcars on the express (passing) bus lanes and train the bus drivers how to share properly with streetcars. I presume streetcar stops will be to the right, in front of the bus stop, with stopped buses at the bus stop yielding to an oncoming streetcar. For me, one of the most appealing streetcar alignment options is to allocate two lanes of a trunk to bus lane, with the car traffic ONLY running the opposite direction in the facing lane(s). Next street over is the one-way car traffic that way and the one way bus traffic the opposite way.

Then put the streetcars on the express (passing) bus lanes and train the bus drivers how to share properly with streetcars. I presume streetcar stops will be to the right, in front of the bus stop, with stopped buses at the bus stop yielding to an oncoming streetcar.

]]> By: W. K. Lis http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/08/implementing-streetcars-demands-consideration-of-the-way-traffic-works/#comment-20814 W. K. Lis Sat, 12 Dec 2009 22:31:15 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4806#comment-20814 In my experience with Toronto's streetcars in mixed traffic, in general, there are no left turn lanes. The exception are whenever there is new right-of-way for the streetcars. Where there are no left turns, the streetcars create an "advance green" for the opposite moving traffic. When the streetcar stop for passengers and open their doors, the traffic to the right and behind must stop before the open doors. In doing so, any left turners in the opposite direction get the chance to complete their left turn. In my experience with Toronto’s streetcars in mixed traffic, in general, there are no left turn lanes. The exception are whenever there is new right-of-way for the streetcars.

Where there are no left turns, the streetcars create an “advance green” for the opposite moving traffic. When the streetcar stop for passengers and open their doors, the traffic to the right and behind must stop before the open doors. In doing so, any left turners in the opposite direction get the chance to complete their left turn.

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