Comments on: Congress Compromises on $2.5 Billion for High-Speed Rail in FY ’10 Spending Bill http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/09/congress-compromises-on-2-5-billion-for-high-speed-rail-in-fy-10-spending-bill/ Sat, 11 Feb 2012 00:43:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ocean Railroader http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/09/congress-compromises-on-2-5-billion-for-high-speed-rail-in-fy-10-spending-bill/#comment-20556 Ocean Railroader Fri, 11 Dec 2009 02:07:58 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4830#comment-20556 It looks like the NEC needs to have it's own funding from the Bank Bailout funds in that so much of it looks like it's from A Life After People with in how many of it's bridges are rusted out. It could easy eat up all the new funds Amtrack got from the stumius packages. It looks there is not going to be any stringing of any new catenary wires beyound the old sections that the Pennsyvinia Railroad built 80 years that grandfathered in high speed rail in 2010. We could take the 10 billon dollars Goldmen Sacks paid back to the Fed and use that to fund the NEC new up grades and the rail extensions from Washingtion to North Carolina and Norfolk Virginia with bran new up graded full Pennsyvinia Catenary reaching Norfolk Virginia and North Carolina. It looks like the NEC needs to have it’s own funding from the Bank Bailout funds in that so much of it looks like it’s from A Life After People with in how many of it’s bridges are rusted out. It could easy eat up all the new funds Amtrack got from the stumius packages. It looks there is not going to be any stringing of any new catenary wires beyound the old sections that the Pennsyvinia Railroad built 80 years that grandfathered in high speed rail in 2010.

We could take the 10 billon dollars Goldmen Sacks paid back to the Fed and use that to fund the NEC new up grades and the rail extensions from Washingtion to North Carolina and Norfolk Virginia with bran new up graded full Pennsyvinia Catenary reaching Norfolk Virginia and North Carolina.

]]> By: Adam http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/09/congress-compromises-on-2-5-billion-for-high-speed-rail-in-fy-10-spending-bill/#comment-20549 Adam Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:27:42 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4830#comment-20549 Brandi, "I find it kind of odd that the arra funds are more grants than matches. It would have probably been better to make those matches to attract only those who were really interested." The reason they were set up like that is because they are recovery funds and it was assumed that states are very cash-strapped right now and may not be able to devote funds away from other budget holes that need filled to HSR. Now, that being said, they have made it pretty clear that applicants that are willing to put up some money on their own (e.g. california, or the midwest), will be looked up favorably in the grant process. Brandi,

“I find it kind of odd that the arra funds are more grants than matches. It would have probably been better to make those matches to attract only those who were really interested.”

The reason they were set up like that is because they are recovery funds and it was assumed that states are very cash-strapped right now and may not be able to devote funds away from other budget holes that need filled to HSR. Now, that being said, they have made it pretty clear that applicants that are willing to put up some money on their own (e.g. california, or the midwest), will be looked up favorably in the grant process.

]]> By: jim http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/09/congress-compromises-on-2-5-billion-for-high-speed-rail-in-fy-10-spending-bill/#comment-20519 jim Thu, 10 Dec 2009 20:46:34 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4830#comment-20519 I don't think CA has settled on an operator, but one of the Californians would know. Midwest and Southeast look as though they're planning to use Amtrak. Florida is going to contract it out: "A Public Private Partnership is envisioned in which private entities will be offered the opportunity to operate and maintain the system for a long period in exchange for the ridership revenue from the system." I don’t think CA has settled on an operator, but one of the Californians would know. Midwest and Southeast look as though they’re planning to use Amtrak. Florida is going to contract it out:

“A Public Private Partnership is envisioned in which private entities will be offered the opportunity to operate and maintain the system for a long period in exchange for the ridership revenue from the system.”

]]> By: Brandi http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/09/congress-compromises-on-2-5-billion-for-high-speed-rail-in-fy-10-spending-bill/#comment-20502 Brandi Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:30:31 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4830#comment-20502 Thanks to Adam and Rafael for further explaining the details. It makes more sense now. I find it kind of odd that the arra funds are more grants than matches. It would have probably been better to make those matches to attract only those who were really interested. Anyways another question. Will Amtrak be the operated of new high speed services? Will they be branded Amtrak? Like californias current ones? Or will they be up to the state to decide. Thanks to Adam and Rafael for further explaining the details. It makes more sense now. I find it kind of odd that the arra funds are more grants than matches. It would have probably been better to make those matches to attract only those who were really interested.

Anyways another question. Will Amtrak be the operated of new high speed services? Will they be branded Amtrak? Like californias current ones? Or will they be up to the state to decide.

]]> By: Cameron Slick http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/09/congress-compromises-on-2-5-billion-for-high-speed-rail-in-fy-10-spending-bill/#comment-20428 Cameron Slick Thu, 10 Dec 2009 05:06:20 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4830#comment-20428 ARRA money, by its purpose, ought to be spent on the projects that can get done quickest. As a child of Detroit, and citizen of Minneapolis, I clearly see justification in the "Chicago Hub" system, and what we are asking for at a minimum is a restoration of service that parts of the country, like the NEC, never really lost. That being said, I think the NEC spine is a naturally superior line because of it's direct connections to New York state, New England, the Southeast (Richmond-Charlotte-Atlanta), and eventually the Deep South, Florida, and Texas. However, even ambitious and righteous Rep Oberstar's proposal isn't suffice to build a complete national network, yet. But it's so much better than that which is currently out there. I heard it directly from Sec. LaHood that Pres. Obama doesn't want to raise the gas tax until the economy has improved. So we must get behind Oberstar if we want to build a national network. ARRA money, by its purpose, ought to be spent on the projects that can get done quickest. As a child of Detroit, and citizen of Minneapolis, I clearly see justification in the “Chicago Hub” system, and what we are asking for at a minimum is a restoration of service that parts of the country, like the NEC, never really lost.

That being said, I think the NEC spine is a naturally superior line because of it’s direct connections to New York state, New England, the Southeast (Richmond-Charlotte-Atlanta), and eventually the Deep South, Florida, and Texas.

However, even ambitious and righteous Rep Oberstar’s proposal isn’t suffice to build a complete national network, yet. But it’s so much better than that which is currently out there. I heard it directly from Sec. LaHood that Pres. Obama doesn’t want to raise the gas tax until the economy has improved. So we must get behind Oberstar if we want to build a national network.

]]> By: jim http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/09/congress-compromises-on-2-5-billion-for-high-speed-rail-in-fy-10-spending-bill/#comment-20409 jim Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:55:08 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4830#comment-20409 My expectation is that the NEC will be a separate action. The NEC Master Plan is supposed to be out next month, or maybe early February. We saw a preview that the NEC spine will need something like $10B. The feeder lines (which keep growing: Downeaster is not just going to Brunswick, now, there's spur to lewiston on the latest maps) will add, perhaps considerably, to it.. I'd expect that FRA, Amtrak and CONEG will do some sort of coordinated push to get it addressed in the Surface Transport Reauthorization. My expectation is that the NEC will be a separate action. The NEC Master Plan is supposed to be out next month, or maybe early February. We saw a preview that the NEC spine will need something like $10B. The feeder lines (which keep growing: Downeaster is not just going to Brunswick, now, there’s spur to lewiston on the latest maps) will add, perhaps considerably, to it.. I’d expect that FRA, Amtrak and CONEG will do some sort of coordinated push to get it addressed in the Surface Transport Reauthorization.

]]> By: Adam http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/09/congress-compromises-on-2-5-billion-for-high-speed-rail-in-fy-10-spending-bill/#comment-20406 Adam Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:42:17 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4830#comment-20406 Thanks for the clarification jim. I think though, as you insinuate, it won't be so much a full blown re-application process, as a tweaking of original applications (or major overhauls if there were serious flaws). And since this is FY2010 money (which we are in now) and therefore, must be obligated before Sept. 30, 2010, I expect it will be a fairly quick turnaround before new grants are awarded. Thanks for the clarification jim. I think though, as you insinuate, it won’t be so much a full blown re-application process, as a tweaking of original applications (or major overhauls if there were serious flaws). And since this is FY2010 money (which we are in now) and therefore, must be obligated before Sept. 30, 2010, I expect it will be a fairly quick turnaround before new grants are awarded.

]]> By: Rafael http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/09/congress-compromises-on-2-5-billion-for-high-speed-rail-in-fy-10-spending-bill/#comment-20403 Rafael Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:25:44 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4830#comment-20403 @ Adam - ah, ok. Thx for the info. @ Javier - these $2.5 billion are not earmarked for Florida, it's for HSR nationwide. USDOT will use it to award grants in the February timeframe. Note that it may be tied to an 80% federal share, so applications against ARRA that were counting on the Feds to foot the entire bill may be ineligible for this additional pot of gold in their present form. Btw, the Orlando Airport-Miami leg is still in a much earlier phase of environmental planning and the right of way hasn't be acquired yet. That's why the focus for ARRA is on Tampa-Orlando Airport leg, which is shovel-ready in the sense of that bill. @ Brandi - "$2.5 billion [...] to provide grants to states or Amtrak for high speed/intercity passenger rail" + "$1.6 billion [...] to support the national passenger rail system." So yes, Amtrak can compete with the states for the $2.5 billion in fresh HSR money, in addition to the $1.6 billion that it's getting anyhow. Note that the NEC and Amtrak Acela Express are part of the national passenger rail system. Since Amtrak has an $8 billion maintenance backlog on the NEC alone, I doubt it will be looking to expand HSR service into other corridors, with the possible exception of Philadelphia-Harrisburg. This grant + compete arrangement mirrors HR2095-110th (PRIIA), though the numbers are different. Afaik, only states were permitted to file an application against the $8 billion in ARRA. As for the total amount, yes, it's still small compared to what other countries are doing, largely as a result of the institutional inertia of the US Senate. Strictly speaking, procedural rules (e.g. indefinite speaking time, filibuster, hold) that pre-empt the application of the US constitution (rule by simple majority) are arguably unconstitutional. Dunno why no-one has filed a lawsuit against the institution of the US Senate yet. For reference, Brazil is about to put a $20 billion line from Rio to Saõ Paolo out to tender. Top speed 350km/h, two airport stations, completion in time for the 2016 Olympics. @ Fritz - unless you're proposing a brand-new corridor in the Northeast, with dedicated routes into city centers (opportunity for quiet maglev?), there is only limited scope for increasing Acela Express speeds via incremental upgrades. Yonah <a href="http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/10/26/amtrak-contemplates-a-renewed-northeast-corridor-and-lays-out-the-stakes/" rel="nofollow">posted</a> on this recently. You can view FRA's preliminary national rail plan <a href="http://www.fra.dot.gov/Downloads/RailPlanPrelim10-15.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Prepare to be underwhelmed, this is a hidebound agency that remains 95% focused on rail freight capacity and safety. That's essential for the economy, but it's not yet aligned with the new policy objectives for passenger rail. There's nothing specific on any PTC standardization process, zip on mixed traffic (use of lightweight passenger rolling stock), very little on corridor development policy. Lots of boilerplate blurb and hand-waving. @ Adam -

ah, ok. Thx for the info.

@ Javier -

these $2.5 billion are not earmarked for Florida, it’s for HSR nationwide. USDOT will use it to award grants in the February timeframe. Note that it may be tied to an 80% federal share, so applications against ARRA that were counting on the Feds to foot the entire bill may be ineligible for this additional pot of gold in their present form.

Btw, the Orlando Airport-Miami leg is still in a much earlier phase of environmental planning and the right of way hasn’t be acquired yet. That’s why the focus for ARRA is on Tampa-Orlando Airport leg, which is shovel-ready in the sense of that bill.

@ Brandi -

“$2.5 billion [...] to provide grants to states or Amtrak for high speed/intercity passenger rail”

+

“$1.6 billion [...] to support the national passenger rail system.”

So yes, Amtrak can compete with the states for the $2.5 billion in fresh HSR money, in addition to the $1.6 billion that it’s getting anyhow. Note that the NEC and Amtrak Acela Express are part of the national passenger rail system. Since Amtrak has an $8 billion maintenance backlog on the NEC alone, I doubt it will be looking to expand HSR service into other corridors, with the possible exception of Philadelphia-Harrisburg.

This grant + compete arrangement mirrors HR2095-110th (PRIIA), though the numbers are different. Afaik, only states were permitted to file an application against the $8 billion in ARRA.

As for the total amount, yes, it’s still small compared to what other countries are doing, largely as a result of the institutional inertia of the US Senate. Strictly speaking, procedural rules (e.g. indefinite speaking time, filibuster, hold) that pre-empt the application of the US constitution (rule by simple majority) are arguably unconstitutional. Dunno why no-one has filed a lawsuit against the institution of the US Senate yet.

For reference, Brazil is about to put a $20 billion line from Rio to Saõ Paolo out to tender. Top speed 350km/h, two airport stations, completion in time for the 2016 Olympics.

@ Fritz -

unless you’re proposing a brand-new corridor in the Northeast, with dedicated routes into city centers (opportunity for quiet maglev?), there is only limited scope for increasing Acela Express speeds via incremental upgrades. Yonah posted on this recently.

You can view FRA’s preliminary national rail plan here. Prepare to be underwhelmed, this is a hidebound agency that remains 95% focused on rail freight capacity and safety. That’s essential for the economy, but it’s not yet aligned with the new policy objectives for passenger rail. There’s nothing specific on any PTC standardization process, zip on mixed traffic (use of lightweight passenger rolling stock), very little on corridor development policy. Lots of boilerplate blurb and hand-waving.

]]> By: jim http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/09/congress-compromises-on-2-5-billion-for-high-speed-rail-in-fy-10-spending-bill/#comment-20402 jim Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:24:57 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4830#comment-20402 If I have read the interim guidance right, yes, States will have to reapply. The 2010 appropriation, together with any of the $8B that hasn't been awarded in Round 1, will constitute Round 2. States will be told how to amend their Round 1 applications to make them more competitive and they may add new applications, too. Virginia, for example, intends to add an application for Richmond to Hampton Roads, which will, by the time Round 2 applications are due, have a Record of Decision. If I have read the interim guidance right, yes, States will have to reapply. The 2010 appropriation, together with any of the $8B that hasn’t been awarded in Round 1, will constitute Round 2. States will be told how to amend their Round 1 applications to make them more competitive and they may add new applications, too. Virginia, for example, intends to add an application for Richmond to Hampton Roads, which will, by the time Round 2 applications are due, have a Record of Decision.

]]> By: Fritz http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/09/congress-compromises-on-2-5-billion-for-high-speed-rail-in-fy-10-spending-bill/#comment-20377 Fritz Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:13:18 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4830#comment-20377 This is all good news but my biggest worry is the lack of a Programmatic EIS on the northeast corridor. I think it would be a big mistake to not have the NEC be an important example of HSR funding in the U.S. Getting the NEC to be "true HSR" would be a great example of an American model for HSR which can include commuter rail on the same ROW. Currently, NEC projects can't get the Track 2 funding and with Track 1 funds necessarily being spent in 2 years it will be difficult to pull much off. It's particularly distressing since so many of the NEC projects have project level EISes done, just the corridor needs its. It's not that the NEC deserves the money more than other projects, it's just that it should be better able to compete for it. In any case, this is pretty good news all around. I can't wait for the FRA to release the rail plan next year (summer?) and see what they've put in terms of priorities. This is all good news but my biggest worry is the lack of a Programmatic EIS on the northeast corridor. I think it would be a big mistake to not have the NEC be an important example of HSR funding in the U.S. Getting the NEC to be “true HSR” would be a great example of an American model for HSR which can include commuter rail on the same ROW. Currently, NEC projects can’t get the Track 2 funding and with Track 1 funds necessarily being spent in 2 years it will be difficult to pull much off. It’s particularly distressing since so many of the NEC projects have project level EISes done, just the corridor needs its. It’s not that the NEC deserves the money more than other projects, it’s just that it should be better able to compete for it.

In any case, this is pretty good news all around. I can’t wait for the FRA to release the rail plan next year (summer?) and see what they’ve put in terms of priorities.

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