<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Congress Approves M1 Involvement in Detroit Light Rail</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 16:27:39 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: W. King</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/#comment-22582</link>
		<dc:creator>W. King</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 21:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4982#comment-22582</guid>
		<description>Also the DTOGS/Woodward LRT website shows exactly how the city would like to see the entire corridor.  It does not show what the private sector is proposing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also the DTOGS/Woodward LRT website shows exactly how the city would like to see the entire corridor.  It does not show what the private sector is proposing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: W. King</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/#comment-22581</link>
		<dc:creator>W. King</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 21:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4982#comment-22581</guid>
		<description>Jayson and Yonah
Those stations are split and would have one on each side of Woodward within the 3.4 mile section thus doubling the amount.  The section north of grand blvd would be center running and have shared or split stations (the cities section).  The private section is as I stated above.  3.4 mile side running between Jefferson Avenue and Grand Blvd 12-13 stations on each side... Don&#039;t believe everything you read in the paper.  I used to work on this project up until about four months ago when I moved to the PNW.  It&#039;s a great great project for Detroit but must be done right.  No conclusions here... Only facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jayson and Yonah<br />
Those stations are split and would have one on each side of Woodward within the 3.4 mile section thus doubling the amount.  The section north of grand blvd would be center running and have shared or split stations (the cities section).  The private section is as I stated above.  3.4 mile side running between Jefferson Avenue and Grand Blvd 12-13 stations on each side&#8230; Don&#8217;t believe everything you read in the paper.  I used to work on this project up until about four months ago when I moved to the PNW.  It&#8217;s a great great project for Detroit but must be done right.  No conclusions here&#8230; Only facts.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Yonah Freemark</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/#comment-22551</link>
		<dc:creator>Yonah Freemark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4982#comment-22551</guid>
		<description>Jayson -
The initial plan for the corridor would have had 12-15 stations along the whole route, as you wrote. But the M1 group now wants 12-13 stations along Woodward on &lt;i&gt;just&lt;/i&gt; its 3.4-mile portion. Evidence:

&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.beiassociates.com/news_detail_T7_R3.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.beiassociates.com/news_detail_T7_R3.html&lt;/a&gt;
&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20090817/FREE/908179982&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20090817/FREE/908179982&lt;/a&gt;
&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.masstransitmag.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=3&amp;id=8129&amp;pageNum=2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.masstransitmag.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=3&amp;id=8129&amp;pageNum=2&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jayson -<br />
The initial plan for the corridor would have had 12-15 stations along the whole route, as you wrote. But the M1 group now wants 12-13 stations along Woodward on <i>just</i> its 3.4-mile portion. Evidence:</p>
<p>> <a href="http://www.beiassociates.com/news_detail_T7_R3.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.beiassociates.com/news_detail_T7_R3.html</a><br />
> <a href="http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20090817/FREE/908179982" rel="nofollow">http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20090817/FREE/908179982</a><br />
> <a href="http://www.masstransitmag.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=3&#038;id=8129&#038;pageNum=2" rel="nofollow">http://www.masstransitmag.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=3&#038;id=8129&#038;pageNum=2</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jayson L</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/#comment-22547</link>
		<dc:creator>Jayson L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4982#comment-22547</guid>
		<description>I suggest people review the project website before rushing to conclusions about the project or repeating false information.  The project has 12-15 stations for about 9.3 miles of track.  Most of the stations are at least 1/2 mile apart.  I live in Portland and can&#039;t stand how closely spaced the stations are downtown (some are just 300 feet apart!), but this project appears to have much better spacing.  Also, the project has peer city comparisons that show Detroit is relatively more dense than many other comparable cities.  Lastly, the transit agency projects about 22,000 riders on the full 9.3 mile project.  Rather than speculate, I suggest people research facts on census bureau, bureau of transportation statistics, or other relevant official sources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suggest people review the project website before rushing to conclusions about the project or repeating false information.  The project has 12-15 stations for about 9.3 miles of track.  Most of the stations are at least 1/2 mile apart.  I live in Portland and can&#8217;t stand how closely spaced the stations are downtown (some are just 300 feet apart!), but this project appears to have much better spacing.  Also, the project has peer city comparisons that show Detroit is relatively more dense than many other comparable cities.  Lastly, the transit agency projects about 22,000 riders on the full 9.3 mile project.  Rather than speculate, I suggest people research facts on census bureau, bureau of transportation statistics, or other relevant official sources.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: W. King</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/#comment-22535</link>
		<dc:creator>W. King</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 16:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4982#comment-22535</guid>
		<description>For those of you who think that 12 stops is absurd, why don&#039;t you chew on this?  The private company is actually proposing a stop in each direction; not shared center platforms.  You may have already figured this out with the &quot;3.4 mile loop&quot; but in reality there are 24-25 stops. One in each direction and the private group is proposing side-running while maintaining parking on Woodward.  It would run one lane off of the parking lane and have bump-outs at the stations.  Buses and Trolleys because lets be honest these are trolleys the private group is talking about, would share stations, and left-turns would be maintained.  The private group doesn&#039;t have $120 million, $50 million of it is the cities money.  The private group should not be calling the shots in the city.  The &quot;loop&quot; will be another peoplemover and this whole private portion is being driven by suburban residents who don&#039;t understand transportation operations, safety or efficiency.  The M-1 group is being pushed by Automotive and Mortgage professionals as well as suburban horse farm owners.  M-1 is a joke, they should let the city take the lead.  It is a different time in Detroit politically and there is less corruption and more potential than ever.  I lived in downtown Detroit for four years on Woodward and know that the cities plan is better for the movement of transit riders.  I&#039;m hopeful that DDOT will prevail over M-1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those of you who think that 12 stops is absurd, why don&#8217;t you chew on this?  The private company is actually proposing a stop in each direction; not shared center platforms.  You may have already figured this out with the &#8220;3.4 mile loop&#8221; but in reality there are 24-25 stops. One in each direction and the private group is proposing side-running while maintaining parking on Woodward.  It would run one lane off of the parking lane and have bump-outs at the stations.  Buses and Trolleys because lets be honest these are trolleys the private group is talking about, would share stations, and left-turns would be maintained.  The private group doesn&#8217;t have $120 million, $50 million of it is the cities money.  The private group should not be calling the shots in the city.  The &#8220;loop&#8221; will be another peoplemover and this whole private portion is being driven by suburban residents who don&#8217;t understand transportation operations, safety or efficiency.  The M-1 group is being pushed by Automotive and Mortgage professionals as well as suburban horse farm owners.  M-1 is a joke, they should let the city take the lead.  It is a different time in Detroit politically and there is less corruption and more potential than ever.  I lived in downtown Detroit for four years on Woodward and know that the cities plan is better for the movement of transit riders.  I&#8217;m hopeful that DDOT will prevail over M-1.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/#comment-22518</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4982#comment-22518</guid>
		<description>Anywhere else in the world, temperatures are not a correlate of subway station spacing. St. Petersburg and Moscow have the widest subway stop spacing of the world&#039;s major systems, and they manage to cope...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anywhere else in the world, temperatures are not a correlate of subway station spacing. St. Petersburg and Moscow have the widest subway stop spacing of the world&#8217;s major systems, and they manage to cope&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Drewski</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/#comment-22516</link>
		<dc:creator>Drewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4982#comment-22516</guid>
		<description>Aaron, as a Clevelander for the past 21 years, I have to tell you a sad truth.  Bluntly put, Detroit and Cleveland are the two largest centers of the fastest-shrinking urban region in the world.  The rest of the country looks at us and is scared and stunned.  Our cities are broken and ugly, and it&#039;s not unjustified to suggest that we are collectively Third World in the scale and multitude of our problems.  It&#039;s not bashing to point out that Dresden looked better after the firestorm than Detroit and Cleveland do with our significantly self-inflicted decay.  Please stop being so defensive when the truth is so evident.  And yes, I live in the city of Cleveland, not a suburb.  

Any transit investment in either city comes with the baggage of heretofore inevitable massive population decline.  Since 1950, Detroit&#039;s lost over 1.2 million people.  That&#039;s Dallas.  Cleveland&#039;s lost at least 500,000--that&#039;s Fort Worth.  This part of the country--from Saginaw down to at least New Kensington PA--is still densely populated by national standards, but is in horrible shape.  It could be a major test for the power of rail to help regenerate very degraded urban areas.

Detroit was once seriously considering massive wholesale demolition--just clearing out square miles of nearly-empty wasteland.  The proposed Woodward line isn&#039;t exempt.  Take a look on Google Maps, from downtown Detroit up to 8 Mile.  It&#039;s barren and ugly and damn near terrifying.  That&#039;s a kind description of most of the rest of the city.  I don&#039;t doubt that a rail line down Woodward still has potential, but it has to come with some very difficult choices.  Maybe first of those is that the city has to start pruning its dead areas.  No more pretending that infill will fix things.  It won&#039;t.  If anything, if the city doesn&#039;t act in the next few years, it (like Cleveland) will start to face major problems with all aspects of infrastructure.  If 60-plus percent of your population is gone, you need to get rid of at least a quarter of your streets, streetlights, sewers and water lines.  What&#039;s left had better be equal to or greater in density than what was there 40 years ago, which isn&#039;t impossible in the Woodward corridor.  There&#039;s already a market for urban living.  It just can&#039;t be the pseudo-urban crap you see at a &quot;lifestyle center&quot;--urban facade with LOTS of free parking.  The Woodward line could be one part of a large-scale experiment in stabilizing an imploding city, and for that reason alone could merit allowing private money to cover the local share under FTA guidelines.

This option isn&#039;t totally beyond prior FTA parameters.  Remember that the Metrolink r/w through the center of St Louis was the old Wabash r/w, and was purchased for $1.  The FTA agreed to accept that r/w as St Louis city&#039;s local contribution to the project, which I seem to recall was valued at something like $125 mill.  In Detroit, allowing the private money as part or all of the local share should be combined with something else.  The city (in cooperation with Wayne County) should be required to start closing off abandoned areas, and paying people (and possibly paying to move their houses) to complete clearance.  No way in hell can you justify building a streetcar line if the population density along the line is dropping to 1000/sq mi or lower.  Again, the Woodward corridor has potential, but it has to be regarded as something more like postwar reconstruction than some simple augmentation of a functioning city.  Detroit isn&#039;t a functioning city.

How bad are Detroit and Cleveland?  Two years ago, before the crash, there were large parts of both cities where you couldn&#039;t be away from your house for more than a few days, or thieves would break in and steal EVERY bit of copper piping in the house--and you&#039;d come home to a flooded basement, because thieves don&#039;t bother to shut off the water.  I spoke to a woman in Detroit who told me about a commercial AC unit being stolen from the roof of a small office building, for the scrap metal.  In order for the Woodward proposal to move forward, Detroit is going to have to explain how it&#039;s going to move beyond a half-century of incompetent governance.  

Finally, when outsiders start talking about the spacing of streetcar stops being too close, Detroiters need to take those outsiders on a nice, demonstration, half-mile walk along Woodward, preferably right after a snowstorm, and when the wind is nice and brisk from the west.  And COLD.  Detroit isn&#039;t as wet as Cleveland, but part of the reason for the station spacing is that a half-mile walk into blinding horizontal snow (which we have every winter on the Great Lakes, from as early as October to as late as May) is miserable, which would have the impact of limiting ridership.  Imposing Portland or San Francisco standards would be counterproductive.   Go ahead with this proposal, but force Detroit to start cutting off the urban gangrene.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron, as a Clevelander for the past 21 years, I have to tell you a sad truth.  Bluntly put, Detroit and Cleveland are the two largest centers of the fastest-shrinking urban region in the world.  The rest of the country looks at us and is scared and stunned.  Our cities are broken and ugly, and it&#8217;s not unjustified to suggest that we are collectively Third World in the scale and multitude of our problems.  It&#8217;s not bashing to point out that Dresden looked better after the firestorm than Detroit and Cleveland do with our significantly self-inflicted decay.  Please stop being so defensive when the truth is so evident.  And yes, I live in the city of Cleveland, not a suburb.  </p>
<p>Any transit investment in either city comes with the baggage of heretofore inevitable massive population decline.  Since 1950, Detroit&#8217;s lost over 1.2 million people.  That&#8217;s Dallas.  Cleveland&#8217;s lost at least 500,000&#8211;that&#8217;s Fort Worth.  This part of the country&#8211;from Saginaw down to at least New Kensington PA&#8211;is still densely populated by national standards, but is in horrible shape.  It could be a major test for the power of rail to help regenerate very degraded urban areas.</p>
<p>Detroit was once seriously considering massive wholesale demolition&#8211;just clearing out square miles of nearly-empty wasteland.  The proposed Woodward line isn&#8217;t exempt.  Take a look on Google Maps, from downtown Detroit up to 8 Mile.  It&#8217;s barren and ugly and damn near terrifying.  That&#8217;s a kind description of most of the rest of the city.  I don&#8217;t doubt that a rail line down Woodward still has potential, but it has to come with some very difficult choices.  Maybe first of those is that the city has to start pruning its dead areas.  No more pretending that infill will fix things.  It won&#8217;t.  If anything, if the city doesn&#8217;t act in the next few years, it (like Cleveland) will start to face major problems with all aspects of infrastructure.  If 60-plus percent of your population is gone, you need to get rid of at least a quarter of your streets, streetlights, sewers and water lines.  What&#8217;s left had better be equal to or greater in density than what was there 40 years ago, which isn&#8217;t impossible in the Woodward corridor.  There&#8217;s already a market for urban living.  It just can&#8217;t be the pseudo-urban crap you see at a &#8220;lifestyle center&#8221;&#8211;urban facade with LOTS of free parking.  The Woodward line could be one part of a large-scale experiment in stabilizing an imploding city, and for that reason alone could merit allowing private money to cover the local share under FTA guidelines.</p>
<p>This option isn&#8217;t totally beyond prior FTA parameters.  Remember that the Metrolink r/w through the center of St Louis was the old Wabash r/w, and was purchased for $1.  The FTA agreed to accept that r/w as St Louis city&#8217;s local contribution to the project, which I seem to recall was valued at something like $125 mill.  In Detroit, allowing the private money as part or all of the local share should be combined with something else.  The city (in cooperation with Wayne County) should be required to start closing off abandoned areas, and paying people (and possibly paying to move their houses) to complete clearance.  No way in hell can you justify building a streetcar line if the population density along the line is dropping to 1000/sq mi or lower.  Again, the Woodward corridor has potential, but it has to be regarded as something more like postwar reconstruction than some simple augmentation of a functioning city.  Detroit isn&#8217;t a functioning city.</p>
<p>How bad are Detroit and Cleveland?  Two years ago, before the crash, there were large parts of both cities where you couldn&#8217;t be away from your house for more than a few days, or thieves would break in and steal EVERY bit of copper piping in the house&#8211;and you&#8217;d come home to a flooded basement, because thieves don&#8217;t bother to shut off the water.  I spoke to a woman in Detroit who told me about a commercial AC unit being stolen from the roof of a small office building, for the scrap metal.  In order for the Woodward proposal to move forward, Detroit is going to have to explain how it&#8217;s going to move beyond a half-century of incompetent governance.  </p>
<p>Finally, when outsiders start talking about the spacing of streetcar stops being too close, Detroiters need to take those outsiders on a nice, demonstration, half-mile walk along Woodward, preferably right after a snowstorm, and when the wind is nice and brisk from the west.  And COLD.  Detroit isn&#8217;t as wet as Cleveland, but part of the reason for the station spacing is that a half-mile walk into blinding horizontal snow (which we have every winter on the Great Lakes, from as early as October to as late as May) is miserable, which would have the impact of limiting ridership.  Imposing Portland or San Francisco standards would be counterproductive.   Go ahead with this proposal, but force Detroit to start cutting off the urban gangrene.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ocean Railroader</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/#comment-22467</link>
		<dc:creator>Ocean Railroader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 21:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4982#comment-22467</guid>
		<description>This is odd but in the case of Detroit I woukl drop the funding rules and let privet companiies step in to meet the city&#039;s funding % in that the privet companies would know were a good investment is at and that it&#039;s privet money vs city tax money which the citiy dosen&#039;t have. I&#039;ve been to Detroit in real life and that city needs every form of aid possible to save it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is odd but in the case of Detroit I woukl drop the funding rules and let privet companiies step in to meet the city&#8217;s funding % in that the privet companies would know were a good investment is at and that it&#8217;s privet money vs city tax money which the citiy dosen&#8217;t have. I&#8217;ve been to Detroit in real life and that city needs every form of aid possible to save it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alex B.</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/#comment-22279</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 18:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4982#comment-22279</guid>
		<description>To add some objectivity to the discussion, both Detroit and Minneapolis&#039; current densities are almost exactly the same across the city limits.  

Detroit may have been more dense prior to the population losses, but you can say that about most cities, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add some objectivity to the discussion, both Detroit and Minneapolis&#8217; current densities are almost exactly the same across the city limits.  </p>
<p>Detroit may have been more dense prior to the population losses, but you can say that about most cities, too.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cameron Slick</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/12/21/congress-approves-m1-involvement-in-detroit-light-rail/#comment-22107</link>
		<dc:creator>Cameron Slick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=4982#comment-22107</guid>
		<description>I am also a current citizen of Minneapolis and former citizen of Detroit and can say with great certainty that the core of Minneapolis &amp; St. Paul are effectively denser than Detroit. There is also no way in hell that the 3.4-mile starter segment would generate over 30,000 riders daily. The city build-out to the State Fairgrounds would probably generate those many riders, since bus ridership on Woodward is around there.

That being said, this is a wholly legitimate project. There is a good reason to be conspicuous of private involvement, but I believe the bottom line is only part of the business&#039;s interest. They realize LRT will attract investment, and they don&#039;t won&#039;t to be left in the dust.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am also a current citizen of Minneapolis and former citizen of Detroit and can say with great certainty that the core of Minneapolis &amp; St. Paul are effectively denser than Detroit. There is also no way in hell that the 3.4-mile starter segment would generate over 30,000 riders daily. The city build-out to the State Fairgrounds would probably generate those many riders, since bus ridership on Woodward is around there.</p>
<p>That being said, this is a wholly legitimate project. There is a good reason to be conspicuous of private involvement, but I believe the bottom line is only part of the business&#8217;s interest. They realize LRT will attract investment, and they don&#8217;t won&#8217;t to be left in the dust.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
