Comments on: Responding to the Transport Needs of the Impoverished Suburbs http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/21/responding-to-the-transport-needs-of-the-impoverished-suburbs/ Sat, 11 Feb 2012 00:43:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Nathanael http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/21/responding-to-the-transport-needs-of-the-impoverished-suburbs/#comment-27568 Nathanael Mon, 08 Feb 2010 06:58:48 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5432#comment-27568 "Question: how does society balance improving non-car transport (bike and ped as well as transit) in the suburbs without making it “easier” to live there and therefore more attractive for more people and jobs to keep moving out of denser, more sustainable cities and inner suburbs? In Boston, even though the inner city and inner suburbs have stopped their decline, the farther suburbs are still growing the fastest and expanding." It turns out to be all about zoning. (1) Open space and agricultural land preservation laws. (2) Encourage clustered development -- tightly knit towns with open space around them rather than subdivisions. You don't get your *own* giant yard, but you have a shared giant park surrounding a cluster of houses. It simply shouldn't be possible to rip up good farmland -- or forestland -- or wetlands! -- to build houses, without paying large fees associated with the deleterious effects. In contrast, redevelopment of unused parcels clustered near existing development should be encouraged. Currently the financial incentives are the other way around usually (the unused parcels usually have industrial cleanup costs *and* high property values, the farmland is cheap....) “Question: how does society balance improving non-car transport (bike and ped as well as transit) in the suburbs without making it “easier” to live there and therefore more attractive for more people and jobs to keep moving out of denser, more sustainable cities and inner suburbs? In Boston, even though the inner city and inner suburbs have stopped their decline, the farther suburbs are still growing the fastest and expanding.”

It turns out to be all about zoning.

(1) Open space and agricultural land preservation laws.
(2) Encourage clustered development — tightly knit towns with open space around them rather than subdivisions. You don’t get your *own* giant yard, but you have a shared giant park surrounding a cluster of houses.

It simply shouldn’t be possible to rip up good farmland — or forestland — or wetlands! — to build houses, without paying large fees associated with the deleterious effects. In contrast, redevelopment of unused parcels clustered near existing development should be encouraged. Currently the financial incentives are the other way around usually (the unused parcels usually have industrial cleanup costs *and* high property values, the farmland is cheap….)

]]> By: Nathanael http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/21/responding-to-the-transport-needs-of-the-impoverished-suburbs/#comment-27567 Nathanael Mon, 08 Feb 2010 06:51:07 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5432#comment-27567 That's a fairly dramatic example, isn't it? For Bakersfield, the central city is Los Angeles. Bakersfield is one giant suburb, and very very poor. (Though yeah, the tiny old downtown Bakersfield is apparently the richest place in town.) That’s a fairly dramatic example, isn’t it?

For Bakersfield, the central city is Los Angeles. Bakersfield is one giant suburb, and very very poor.

(Though yeah, the tiny old downtown Bakersfield is apparently the richest place in town.)

]]> By: Alan http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/21/responding-to-the-transport-needs-of-the-impoverished-suburbs/#comment-26921 Alan Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:36:04 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5432#comment-26921 Question: how does society balance improving non-car transport (bike and ped as well as transit) in the suburbs without making it "easier" to live there and therefore more attractive for more people and jobs to keep moving out of denser, more sustainable cities and inner suburbs? In Boston, even though the inner city and inner suburbs have stopped their decline, the farther suburbs are still growing the fastest and expanding. Alan Somerville, MA Question: how does society balance improving non-car transport (bike and ped as well as transit) in the suburbs without making it “easier” to live there and therefore more attractive for more people and jobs to keep moving out of denser, more sustainable cities and inner suburbs? In Boston, even though the inner city and inner suburbs have stopped their decline, the farther suburbs are still growing the fastest and expanding.

Alan
Somerville, MA

]]> By: Nathanael http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/21/responding-to-the-transport-needs-of-the-impoverished-suburbs/#comment-26125 Nathanael Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:00:24 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5432#comment-26125 Suburban poverty will look like rural poverty. Except without the open space and relatively clean air. It will be pretty nasty unless we start concentrating job locations, which is the key prerequisite to establishing good transportation for the masses. Suburban poverty will look like rural poverty. Except without the open space and relatively clean air.

It will be pretty nasty unless we start concentrating job locations, which is the key prerequisite to establishing good transportation for the masses.

]]> By: Jeremy http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/21/responding-to-the-transport-needs-of-the-impoverished-suburbs/#comment-25929 Jeremy Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:00:07 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5432#comment-25929 Great post, Yonah. Great post, Yonah.

]]> By: Ted King http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/21/responding-to-the-transport-needs-of-the-impoverished-suburbs/#comment-25908 Ted King Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:47:43 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5432#comment-25908 Case in point : Geneva + Mission to SFPL's Main Library (Eighth + Market) via SFMuni (four lines*) and BART (two or more lines) 15 - 30 minutes, exit Civic Center Stn. and cross the street(s) Note - 20 mins. typically, add three mins. for each added S.F. stn. (e.g. Powell is 18 - 33 mins.) via SFMuni's #14L (Mission Limited)** 35 - 50 minutes, debark at Eighth + Mission, walk one block north to Market St. + cross over Note - 40 mins. typically, the #14L is a stop skipper until Fifth + Mission <a href="http://sfpl.org/librarylocations/main/maindirections.htm" rel="nofollow">Directions to SFPL's Main Library</a> (Above link omits the F-Market Historical Streetcar line.) <a href="http://www.sfmta.com/cms/asystem/routedesc.php?rted=14L" rel="nofollow">SFMuni's Route Desc. #14L</a> *#8X, #43, #54 - Board on Geneva Ave., NE corner, at shelter #29 - Board on Geneva Ave., NW corner, at sign **#14L - Board on Mission St., NE corner, at shelter WARNING - That stop also has #14 (slow boat to Inner Mission and Downtown), #14X (commuter express) and #29 (cross-town peripheral) <i>P.S. Yes, I know the library is at 100 Larkin St. That's the City Hall Plaza entrance. I usually use the Burger King entrance near Hyde + Grove and across from Eighth + Market. Besides, the numbered streets are easier to find on a map - paper or electronic.</i> Case in point :
Geneva + Mission to SFPL’s Main Library (Eighth + Market)

via SFMuni (four lines*) and BART (two or more lines)
15 – 30 minutes, exit Civic Center Stn. and cross the street(s)
Note – 20 mins. typically, add three mins. for each added S.F. stn. (e.g. Powell is 18 – 33 mins.)

via SFMuni’s #14L (Mission Limited)**
35 – 50 minutes, debark at Eighth + Mission, walk one block north to Market St. + cross over
Note – 40 mins. typically, the #14L is a stop skipper until Fifth + Mission

Directions to SFPL’s Main Library
(Above link omits the F-Market Historical Streetcar line.)
SFMuni’s Route Desc. #14L

*#8X, #43, #54 – Board on Geneva Ave., NE corner, at shelter
#29 – Board on Geneva Ave., NW corner, at sign
**#14L – Board on Mission St., NE corner, at shelter
WARNING – That stop also has #14 (slow boat to Inner Mission and Downtown), #14X (commuter express) and #29 (cross-town peripheral)

P.S. Yes, I know the library is at 100 Larkin St. That’s the City Hall Plaza entrance. I usually use the Burger King entrance near Hyde + Grove and across from Eighth + Market. Besides, the numbered streets are easier to find on a map – paper or electronic.

]]> By: Jarrett at HumanTransit.org http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/21/responding-to-the-transport-needs-of-the-impoverished-suburbs/#comment-25898 Jarrett at HumanTransit.org Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:52:09 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5432#comment-25898 It's here, though of course you should buy it if you can: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl6yilkU1LI It’s here, though of course you should buy it if you can:

]]> By: Jarrett at HumanTransit.org http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/21/responding-to-the-transport-needs-of-the-impoverished-suburbs/#comment-25897 Jarrett at HumanTransit.org Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:51:28 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5432#comment-25897 Great article, Yonah. If you really want to understand this issue, you have to watch the original 1987 music video of Tracy Chapman's <i>Fast Car</i>. Especially if you're too young to remember it. So much of what we're up against, and so much of what we're working for, is in that song. Great article, Yonah.

If you really want to understand this issue, you have to watch the original 1987 music video of Tracy Chapman’s Fast Car. Especially if you’re too young to remember it.

So much of what we’re up against, and so much of what we’re working for, is in that song.

]]> By: calwatch http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/21/responding-to-the-transport-needs-of-the-impoverished-suburbs/#comment-25850 calwatch Sat, 23 Jan 2010 04:40:25 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5432#comment-25850 A lot of suburbs have decent transit, particularly the older, pre-1980 second and third ring suburbs that the poor and working class are likely to be living in. The newly poor, who lost their job but are stuck holding the bag on a 2,000 square foot house miles away from shopping and job opportunities, are going to be the ones holding the bag, but there's not much you can do about that. When Yonah talks about recentralizing suburban housing, he fails to consider the other part of the equation, the jobs that these working class people go to, which often cannot be well centralized. The spatial mismatch between public transit and low-density warehousing and manufacturing facilities means that transit through industrial parks and factory districts is likely a loser. Newer factories are built much further away from each other than in the past, and have much more parking than the old auto plants and meat-packing facilities of the last century. Low income workers are less likely to be working in a multi-story office building than they are driving a fork lift or ringing up a cash register at a big box store in a strip mall. So they now can live in dense environments close to transit, but now have to walk a long distance from the bus stop because the distribution center they work at is on dozens of acres, surrounded of course by tons of parking. A lot of suburbs have decent transit, particularly the older, pre-1980 second and third ring suburbs that the poor and working class are likely to be living in. The newly poor, who lost their job but are stuck holding the bag on a 2,000 square foot house miles away from shopping and job opportunities, are going to be the ones holding the bag, but there’s not much you can do about that.

When Yonah talks about recentralizing suburban housing, he fails to consider the other part of the equation, the jobs that these working class people go to, which often cannot be well centralized. The spatial mismatch between public transit and low-density warehousing and manufacturing facilities means that transit through industrial parks and factory districts is likely a loser. Newer factories are built much further away from each other than in the past, and have much more parking than the old auto plants and meat-packing facilities of the last century. Low income workers are less likely to be working in a multi-story office building than they are driving a fork lift or ringing up a cash register at a big box store in a strip mall. So they now can live in dense environments close to transit, but now have to walk a long distance from the bus stop because the distribution center they work at is on dozens of acres, surrounded of course by tons of parking.

]]> By: Norman Brown http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/21/responding-to-the-transport-needs-of-the-impoverished-suburbs/#comment-25826 Norman Brown Sat, 23 Jan 2010 01:32:08 +0000 http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5432#comment-25826 I don't know why we have to say that the suburbs are here to say. Brooklyn and Queens used to be suburbs. Metropolitanization is one of those things that must not be spoken about like verbal Kryptonite. Good transportation and land use decisions simply cannot be made in the haphazard, balkanized structure the suburbs have committed to. The burbs are choking on property taxes and continue to ring their center cities harvesting real estate values. Meanwhile, genuine agricultural land for table vegetables gets pushed all the way to Guatemala (I wish I was exaggerating). It is all about density and land use patterns being made on a larger scale that benefits the whole in place of little autonomous fiefdoms. Carving out Mass Transit and DoT planning to have a regional base while allowing people to build their own little cultures with wide lawns and narrow minds is big part of what is wrong with this picture. Some metropolitan areas, like Boston, are enormous and the center cities are really very small parts. Its really the chaos of production. The hordes of poor people (usually immigrants) hanging around the Home Depots are a symptom of an organizational disease. I don’t know why we have to say that the suburbs are here to say. Brooklyn and Queens used to be suburbs. Metropolitanization is one of those things that must not be spoken about like verbal Kryptonite. Good transportation and land use decisions simply cannot be made in the haphazard, balkanized structure the suburbs have committed to. The burbs are choking on property taxes and continue to ring their center cities harvesting real estate values. Meanwhile, genuine agricultural land for table vegetables gets pushed all the way to Guatemala (I wish I was exaggerating). It is all about density and land use patterns being made on a larger scale that benefits the whole in place of little autonomous fiefdoms. Carving out Mass Transit and DoT planning to have a regional base while allowing people to build their own little cultures with wide lawns and narrow minds is big part of what is wrong with this picture.
Some metropolitan areas, like Boston, are enormous and the center cities are really very small parts. Its really the chaos of production. The hordes of poor people (usually immigrants) hanging around the Home Depots are a symptom of an organizational disease.

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