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	<title>Comments on: Despite Federal Investment, Ohio 3C Corridor Under Threat from State Republicans</title>
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	<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/19/despite-federal-investment-ohio-3c-corridor-under-threat-from-state-republicans/</link>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/19/despite-federal-investment-ohio-3c-corridor-under-threat-from-state-republicans/#comment-37531</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Apr 2010 00:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5939#comment-37531</guid>
		<description>Woody, don&#039;t forget Dayton has University of Dayton, Wright State University, USAF Museum (largest tourist attraction in Ohio) and Wright-Patterson Air Force Base as generators/attractors to corridor ridership. Ohio let the naysayers kill the excitement around the X-2000 visit in the early 1990s, but there is an energy building in Ohio to support forward-looking efforts such as Third Frontier and now the 3C. Too many pieces of the puzzle are falling into place. My guess is politicians who try to stifle the 3C now will wish they hadn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Woody, don&#8217;t forget Dayton has University of Dayton, Wright State University, USAF Museum (largest tourist attraction in Ohio) and Wright-Patterson Air Force Base as generators/attractors to corridor ridership. Ohio let the naysayers kill the excitement around the X-2000 visit in the early 1990s, but there is an energy building in Ohio to support forward-looking efforts such as Third Frontier and now the 3C. Too many pieces of the puzzle are falling into place. My guess is politicians who try to stifle the 3C now will wish they hadn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/19/despite-federal-investment-ohio-3c-corridor-under-threat-from-state-republicans/#comment-33087</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5939#comment-33087</guid>
		<description>The problem with piggybacking on the existing Empire Service is that people really don&#039;t want to wait an hour for a connecting train. A more reliable operator than Amtrak could time the transfer at Albany, but Amtrak is incapable of sticking to schedule even for 3 hours on its own track, let alone for 16 hours on freight-owned track.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with piggybacking on the existing Empire Service is that people really don&#8217;t want to wait an hour for a connecting train. A more reliable operator than Amtrak could time the transfer at Albany, but Amtrak is incapable of sticking to schedule even for 3 hours on its own track, let alone for 16 hours on freight-owned track.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathanael</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/19/despite-federal-investment-ohio-3c-corridor-under-threat-from-state-republicans/#comment-32980</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathanael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5939#comment-32980</guid>
		<description>&quot;Perhaps a daytime LSL could run from Chicago-Albany then use connections to get from there to Boston and NYC.&quot;

With existing Albany-NYC service, it could simply run Chicago-Boston.  (There is actually a pretty bad need for a second Boston-Albany frequency; currently the LSL is *it*.)  Alternatively it could be structured to replace an existing Empire Corridor Albany-NYC service.  Whichever seems better.  It certainly doesn&#039;t need to actually split at Albany.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Perhaps a daytime LSL could run from Chicago-Albany then use connections to get from there to Boston and NYC.&#8221;</p>
<p>With existing Albany-NYC service, it could simply run Chicago-Boston.  (There is actually a pretty bad need for a second Boston-Albany frequency; currently the LSL is *it*.)  Alternatively it could be structured to replace an existing Empire Corridor Albany-NYC service.  Whichever seems better.  It certainly doesn&#8217;t need to actually split at Albany.</p>
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		<title>By: Woody</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/19/despite-federal-investment-ohio-3c-corridor-under-threat-from-state-republicans/#comment-32950</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5939#comment-32950</guid>
		<description>Well, here&#039;s a refreshingly different take: Nobody travels between Ohio&#039;s biggest cities. Well, different at least. 

Funny, on the Comments at the Columbus newspaper, all sorts of folks weighed in to claim they drive these routes frequently, and of course, faster than the speed of this starter train. Others claim to take the bus. 

Tony, there&#039;s an Interstate connecting the 3Cs and some people want to add lanes to it. Where are all those cars on I-71 going anyway?

I figured that people would need to travel to and from Columbus -- legislators, lawyers, lobbyists, government officials, and citizens with business at the Capitol, fans going to the pro games in Cleveland and Cincinnati and the semi-pro games at Ohio State, students at Ohio State going home, sick people and family going to Cleveland Clinic, art lovers going to the Museum of Art, aging groupies visiting the Rock &amp; Roll Hall of Fame, etc. 

But I dunno. Why do people travel between cities anyway? For whatever reason, they do. And lots of us prefer to ride the train.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, here&#8217;s a refreshingly different take: Nobody travels between Ohio&#8217;s biggest cities. Well, different at least. </p>
<p>Funny, on the Comments at the Columbus newspaper, all sorts of folks weighed in to claim they drive these routes frequently, and of course, faster than the speed of this starter train. Others claim to take the bus. </p>
<p>Tony, there&#8217;s an Interstate connecting the 3Cs and some people want to add lanes to it. Where are all those cars on I-71 going anyway?</p>
<p>I figured that people would need to travel to and from Columbus &#8212; legislators, lawyers, lobbyists, government officials, and citizens with business at the Capitol, fans going to the pro games in Cleveland and Cincinnati and the semi-pro games at Ohio State, students at Ohio State going home, sick people and family going to Cleveland Clinic, art lovers going to the Museum of Art, aging groupies visiting the Rock &amp; Roll Hall of Fame, etc. </p>
<p>But I dunno. Why do people travel between cities anyway? For whatever reason, they do. And lots of us prefer to ride the train.</p>
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		<title>By: tony</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/19/despite-federal-investment-ohio-3c-corridor-under-threat-from-state-republicans/#comment-32863</link>
		<dc:creator>tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 00:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5939#comment-32863</guid>
		<description>i cannot believe that anyone is on board this project, regardless if you are a democrat or republican.  this project would sound amazing if we were living in the 1860&#039;s. Has anyone asked the question why someone in Columbus would ever need to go to Cleveland? Ask anyone you know who lives in Cleveland, Columbus, or Cincinnati if they ever travel to the other cities for anything and they will tell you no, they dont have a need.  There is new technology out there to solve the transportation problems in Ohio, why is it that Ohio can&#039;t be the first to take advantage of them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i cannot believe that anyone is on board this project, regardless if you are a democrat or republican.  this project would sound amazing if we were living in the 1860&#8242;s. Has anyone asked the question why someone in Columbus would ever need to go to Cleveland? Ask anyone you know who lives in Cleveland, Columbus, or Cincinnati if they ever travel to the other cities for anything and they will tell you no, they dont have a need.  There is new technology out there to solve the transportation problems in Ohio, why is it that Ohio can&#8217;t be the first to take advantage of them?</p>
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		<title>By: aw</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/19/despite-federal-investment-ohio-3c-corridor-under-threat-from-state-republicans/#comment-32157</link>
		<dc:creator>aw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 16:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5939#comment-32157</guid>
		<description>Perhaps a daytime LSL could run from Chicago-Albany then use connections to get from there to Boston and NYC.  Since it would be a daylight-only route, there would be no need for sleepers in the consist.  Since there would now be an alternative to the existing Lake Shore Limited, perhaps 1 or 2 of those coaches from that train could be used on this new route.  Then you would need to add more coaches, a cafe/diner and/or lounge, a baggage car and some motive power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps a daytime LSL could run from Chicago-Albany then use connections to get from there to Boston and NYC.  Since it would be a daylight-only route, there would be no need for sleepers in the consist.  Since there would now be an alternative to the existing Lake Shore Limited, perhaps 1 or 2 of those coaches from that train could be used on this new route.  Then you would need to add more coaches, a cafe/diner and/or lounge, a baggage car and some motive power.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/19/despite-federal-investment-ohio-3c-corridor-under-threat-from-state-republicans/#comment-31986</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 00:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5939#comment-31986</guid>
		<description>At 110 mph, the Ann Arbor route is a-okay, but that&#039;s it. If any of the routes converging at Toledo gets upgraded to 110 mph rapid rail, then a continuation to Detroit would get a lot of passengers from Ohio and from Fort Wayne or South Bend.

The airport can be well-served on the Toledo route - in fact, it&#039;s easier to access the rail line near the airport from Toledo than from Ann Arbor. It&#039;s a detour, but it can be done on existing straight ROW. (The other alternative, putting a stop a few km from the airport and building a people mover, works better via Ann Arbor, with a stop at Wayne.)

I don&#039;t think the number of stops on the Ann Arbor route is that problematic for HSR. Not all trains have to stop at every station. The Shinkansen has some local stops at small towns, which most trains skip. If anything it&#039;s a bigger problem for 110 mph diesel trains: the diesel traction makes acceleration and deceleration times not much lower than for HSR, the lower frequency makes it harder to run express trains, and the not-HSR setup hurts reliability, which forces longer dwell times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At 110 mph, the Ann Arbor route is a-okay, but that&#8217;s it. If any of the routes converging at Toledo gets upgraded to 110 mph rapid rail, then a continuation to Detroit would get a lot of passengers from Ohio and from Fort Wayne or South Bend.</p>
<p>The airport can be well-served on the Toledo route &#8211; in fact, it&#8217;s easier to access the rail line near the airport from Toledo than from Ann Arbor. It&#8217;s a detour, but it can be done on existing straight ROW. (The other alternative, putting a stop a few km from the airport and building a people mover, works better via Ann Arbor, with a stop at Wayne.)</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the number of stops on the Ann Arbor route is that problematic for HSR. Not all trains have to stop at every station. The Shinkansen has some local stops at small towns, which most trains skip. If anything it&#8217;s a bigger problem for 110 mph diesel trains: the diesel traction makes acceleration and deceleration times not much lower than for HSR, the lower frequency makes it harder to run express trains, and the not-HSR setup hurts reliability, which forces longer dwell times.</p>
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		<title>By: Woody</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/19/despite-federal-investment-ohio-3c-corridor-under-threat-from-state-republicans/#comment-31978</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 23:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5939#comment-31978</guid>
		<description>Replied to Nathanael above, excuse the garble.

Now to Alon, I agree that Chicago-Toledo-Detroit is optimal for 220-mph HSR. It&#039;s just a short spur off Chicago-Cleveland as a true HSR route. 

Meanwhile, the upper route doesn&#039;t look so bad at 110 mph. I understand that Amtrak owns a third or a half of the ROW, and it has invested much effort in upgrades -- installing new signaling, eliminating grade crossings, etc. But all those intermediate cities could pile on the passengers: Niles (South Bend)-Kalamazoo-Battle Creek-Jackson-Ann Arbor-Dearborn (and perhaps a stop for Detroit Wayne County Airport), Further upgrades will also help the Blue Water route: Port Huron-Flint-East Lansing-Battle Creek-Chicago.

On the other hand, making all those stops on a 220-mph train, would really hurt its time. So I say we go for both 110 and 220, with two routes for Chicago-Detroit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Replied to Nathanael above, excuse the garble.</p>
<p>Now to Alon, I agree that Chicago-Toledo-Detroit is optimal for 220-mph HSR. It&#8217;s just a short spur off Chicago-Cleveland as a true HSR route. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, the upper route doesn&#8217;t look so bad at 110 mph. I understand that Amtrak owns a third or a half of the ROW, and it has invested much effort in upgrades &#8212; installing new signaling, eliminating grade crossings, etc. But all those intermediate cities could pile on the passengers: Niles (South Bend)-Kalamazoo-Battle Creek-Jackson-Ann Arbor-Dearborn (and perhaps a stop for Detroit Wayne County Airport), Further upgrades will also help the Blue Water route: Port Huron-Flint-East Lansing-Battle Creek-Chicago.</p>
<p>On the other hand, making all those stops on a 220-mph train, would really hurt its time. So I say we go for both 110 and 220, with two routes for Chicago-Detroit.</p>
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		<title>By: Woody</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/19/despite-federal-investment-ohio-3c-corridor-under-threat-from-state-republicans/#comment-31976</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 23:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5939#comment-31976</guid>
		<description>Excuse the garble. I addressed that Reply to &quot;Bruce&quot;, but it was meant for &quot;Nathanael&quot; right below. I missed a dose of my meds today and it shows! It&#039;s also a limitation that the software does not allow Replies to Replies, and so I messed up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse the garble. I addressed that Reply to &#8220;Bruce&#8221;, but it was meant for &#8220;Nathanael&#8221; right below. I missed a dose of my meds today and it shows! It&#8217;s also a limitation that the software does not allow Replies to Replies, and so I messed up.</p>
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		<title>By: Woody</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/19/despite-federal-investment-ohio-3c-corridor-under-threat-from-state-republicans/#comment-31975</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 23:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=5939#comment-31975</guid>
		<description>Bruce -- As discussed below, ANY added train giving daytime service to Cleveland should be a winner. And you suggest a quick way would be to add a second departure for the Lake Shore Limited NYC/Boston-Albany-Syracuse-Rochester-Buffalo-Erie-Cleveland-Toledo-Chicago. But why not tweak that second LSL to run Toledo-Detroit-(maybe Pontiac)? 

Of course, Amtrak barely has enough cars to run the trains it has got, much less expanding service, so getting news cars is urgent. Short term I&#039;d be willing to take one of the Empire Corridor trains and extend it beyond Buffalo to Detroit, if the timetable would give daylight stops in Cleveland and Toledo. But extending a Keystone train beyond Harrisburg to Pittsburgh-Youngstown-Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit could also work. 

Amtrak always wants its ld trains to terminate in a city with a crew and maintenance base, and Detroit has that. So the train does not have to go to Chicago, where Union Station maybe doesn&#039;t need or deserve another ld train.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce &#8212; As discussed below, ANY added train giving daytime service to Cleveland should be a winner. And you suggest a quick way would be to add a second departure for the Lake Shore Limited NYC/Boston-Albany-Syracuse-Rochester-Buffalo-Erie-Cleveland-Toledo-Chicago. But why not tweak that second LSL to run Toledo-Detroit-(maybe Pontiac)? </p>
<p>Of course, Amtrak barely has enough cars to run the trains it has got, much less expanding service, so getting news cars is urgent. Short term I&#8217;d be willing to take one of the Empire Corridor trains and extend it beyond Buffalo to Detroit, if the timetable would give daylight stops in Cleveland and Toledo. But extending a Keystone train beyond Harrisburg to Pittsburgh-Youngstown-Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit could also work. </p>
<p>Amtrak always wants its ld trains to terminate in a city with a crew and maintenance base, and Detroit has that. So the train does not have to go to Chicago, where Union Station maybe doesn&#8217;t need or deserve another ld train.</p>
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