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	<title>Comments on: Barcelona&#8217;s Metro Continues Its Expansion at a Relatively Cheap Price</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/06/29/barcelonas-metro-continues-its-expansion-at-a-relatively-cheap-price/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/06/29/barcelonas-metro-continues-its-expansion-at-a-relatively-cheap-price/</link>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/06/29/barcelonas-metro-continues-its-expansion-at-a-relatively-cheap-price/#comment-100378</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Nov 2010 03:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=7403#comment-100378</guid>
		<description>yes you wish ... but the truth is the &quot;prosperous&quot; countries in Europe like UK and France are the ones really rotting, with ghettos in near-civil war situation and cities in alarming rundown conditions, poor safety, high crime rate, broken families.... Yet we read everyday speculations about Spain, which by the way was the only country that didn&#039;t need state intervention in the banking system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes you wish &#8230; but the truth is the &#8220;prosperous&#8221; countries in Europe like UK and France are the ones really rotting, with ghettos in near-civil war situation and cities in alarming rundown conditions, poor safety, high crime rate, broken families&#8230;. Yet we read everyday speculations about Spain, which by the way was the only country that didn&#8217;t need state intervention in the banking system.</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/06/29/barcelonas-metro-continues-its-expansion-at-a-relatively-cheap-price/#comment-100376</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Nov 2010 03:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=7403#comment-100376</guid>
		<description>As an Spanish engineer let me tell you I never had the pleasure, nor have I heard of, somebody in my circle of friends or coworkers, really having time for that &quot;siesta&quot;. It&#039;s funny how people outside Spain think we can afford to sleep at work time.

And Spanish corporate work is from 8 to 18 with 1 hour for lunch. Unfortunately commuting time makes impossible for most of us to go home for lunch, let alone sleep the siesta.

And the Socialized medicine doesnt&#039; mean the government happily pays for everything. Companies have to pay the government the &quot;social security&quot; fee for their employees, that more or less is the same amount as the money the employee gets.

And hahaha as you brilliantly apoint all this is irrelevant to TBM&#039;s which have to be powered 24/7</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an Spanish engineer let me tell you I never had the pleasure, nor have I heard of, somebody in my circle of friends or coworkers, really having time for that &#8220;siesta&#8221;. It&#8217;s funny how people outside Spain think we can afford to sleep at work time.</p>
<p>And Spanish corporate work is from 8 to 18 with 1 hour for lunch. Unfortunately commuting time makes impossible for most of us to go home for lunch, let alone sleep the siesta.</p>
<p>And the Socialized medicine doesnt&#8217; mean the government happily pays for everything. Companies have to pay the government the &#8220;social security&#8221; fee for their employees, that more or less is the same amount as the money the employee gets.</p>
<p>And hahaha as you brilliantly apoint all this is irrelevant to TBM&#8217;s which have to be powered 24/7</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/06/29/barcelonas-metro-continues-its-expansion-at-a-relatively-cheap-price/#comment-100372</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Nov 2010 02:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=7403#comment-100372</guid>
		<description>about your first point, so what is the problem for using the cheaper TBM technology in NY?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>about your first point, so what is the problem for using the cheaper TBM technology in NY?</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/06/29/barcelonas-metro-continues-its-expansion-at-a-relatively-cheap-price/#comment-100365</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Nov 2010 02:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=7403#comment-100365</guid>
		<description>thats false, Catalonia is an autonomous region in Spain, roughly equivalent to an State. In Spain there are another 16 of them. Yes they (we) have their own language co-official with Spanish, but there are other 3 languages in Spain in other states as well. Another way of life? I wonder which way of life. I think you&#039;ve been misinformed by some right wing wishful-thinking website ;) BTW- I&#039;m from Barcelona.

Besides this, I&#039;ve read some interesting points in people&#039;s posts about how that 10:1 difference in costs is possible, and one of the key reasons in my opinion is what one fellow reader commented, that costs are not linear, and are way cheaper the more you build. In the city of Madrid they built a circular underground mile like 40km diameter &#039;all at once&#039; and it was the cheapest per-mile cost of all extensions, while tiny, one-station expansions in the densest parts of downtown probably have a comparable cost to NY&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thats false, Catalonia is an autonomous region in Spain, roughly equivalent to an State. In Spain there are another 16 of them. Yes they (we) have their own language co-official with Spanish, but there are other 3 languages in Spain in other states as well. Another way of life? I wonder which way of life. I think you&#8217;ve been misinformed by some right wing wishful-thinking website ;) BTW- I&#8217;m from Barcelona.</p>
<p>Besides this, I&#8217;ve read some interesting points in people&#8217;s posts about how that 10:1 difference in costs is possible, and one of the key reasons in my opinion is what one fellow reader commented, that costs are not linear, and are way cheaper the more you build. In the city of Madrid they built a circular underground mile like 40km diameter &#8216;all at once&#8217; and it was the cheapest per-mile cost of all extensions, while tiny, one-station expansions in the densest parts of downtown probably have a comparable cost to NY&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: ProSiebenSat1</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/06/29/barcelonas-metro-continues-its-expansion-at-a-relatively-cheap-price/#comment-70596</link>
		<dc:creator>ProSiebenSat1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Sep 2010 00:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=7403#comment-70596</guid>
		<description>Barcelona is not Spain, it&#039;s Catalonia, they don&#039;t work as the spanish people and also they speak another language and have another way to life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barcelona is not Spain, it&#8217;s Catalonia, they don&#8217;t work as the spanish people and also they speak another language and have another way to life.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/06/29/barcelonas-metro-continues-its-expansion-at-a-relatively-cheap-price/#comment-62811</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=7403#comment-62811</guid>
		<description>If there were a plan to go south, I wouldn&#039;t object as much. But there isn&#039;t. Bloomberg only cares about extending to 34th, and nobody else cares about the project at all. There&#039;s a bigger transit case for extending the 7 at the other end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there were a plan to go south, I wouldn&#8217;t object as much. But there isn&#8217;t. Bloomberg only cares about extending to 34th, and nobody else cares about the project at all. There&#8217;s a bigger transit case for extending the 7 at the other end.</p>
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		<title>By: Woody</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/06/29/barcelonas-metro-continues-its-expansion-at-a-relatively-cheap-price/#comment-62643</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:57:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=7403#comment-62643</guid>
		<description>Yes, I did misunderstand which tail lines you meant. The Second Avenue subway is a major addition to the system; the #7 Line extension seems more like a billionaire&#039;s toy project, so it easily slips my mind. Sorry. 

But even there, I wonder if the secret dream  is to one day extend the extension another 12 or 15 blocks south from 26th St. Then the #7 trains would run from the 34th St station over those long tail tracks a mile or so  down the Far West Side. A fairly short tunnel could meet the tracks of the crosstown L on 14th, which now has tunnels to somewhere west of 9th Ave. 

And I said &quot;to meet&quot; the L, not to connect exactly, because I realize that the tunnel and train widths of the #7 and the L are incompatible. But it would not seem be too difficult to construct a station, at 14th or 23rd St, that allowed cross-platform transfers from an extended #7 to an extended L line.

Serving West 23rd St would be worthwhile, as that area builds up. The L leads to other reviving neighborhoods where the population is growing. Adding a second set of transfers to the other lines via the L  would add the PATH line, for an important connection to New Jersey when, we should live so long, the area around the Convention Center and new 34th St station gets crowded with offices, hotels, and apartment towers.

So again, I&#039;m not too upset if they threw five blocks of extra tunnel and track into the current #7 extension if that gives a head start to a future meeting with the L.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I did misunderstand which tail lines you meant. The Second Avenue subway is a major addition to the system; the #7 Line extension seems more like a billionaire&#8217;s toy project, so it easily slips my mind. Sorry. </p>
<p>But even there, I wonder if the secret dream  is to one day extend the extension another 12 or 15 blocks south from 26th St. Then the #7 trains would run from the 34th St station over those long tail tracks a mile or so  down the Far West Side. A fairly short tunnel could meet the tracks of the crosstown L on 14th, which now has tunnels to somewhere west of 9th Ave. </p>
<p>And I said &#8220;to meet&#8221; the L, not to connect exactly, because I realize that the tunnel and train widths of the #7 and the L are incompatible. But it would not seem be too difficult to construct a station, at 14th or 23rd St, that allowed cross-platform transfers from an extended #7 to an extended L line.</p>
<p>Serving West 23rd St would be worthwhile, as that area builds up. The L leads to other reviving neighborhoods where the population is growing. Adding a second set of transfers to the other lines via the L  would add the PATH line, for an important connection to New Jersey when, we should live so long, the area around the Convention Center and new 34th St station gets crowded with offices, hotels, and apartment towers.</p>
<p>So again, I&#8217;m not too upset if they threw five blocks of extra tunnel and track into the current #7 extension if that gives a head start to a future meeting with the L.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/06/29/barcelonas-metro-continues-its-expansion-at-a-relatively-cheap-price/#comment-62492</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 01:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=7403#comment-62492</guid>
		<description>Woody, I think you misunderstood which project I&#039;m talking about. The 500-meter tail tracks are for the 7 extension, not SAS. The intention is to extend the 7 only to 34th Street, but the tunneling goes all the way to 26th.

I wouldn&#039;t criticize tail tracks on SAS, for the reasons you mention. But phase 1 doesn&#039;t even include long tail tracks; the tunneling is only between 96th and 63rd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Woody, I think you misunderstood which project I&#8217;m talking about. The 500-meter tail tracks are for the 7 extension, not SAS. The intention is to extend the 7 only to 34th Street, but the tunneling goes all the way to 26th.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t criticize tail tracks on SAS, for the reasons you mention. But phase 1 doesn&#8217;t even include long tail tracks; the tunneling is only between 96th and 63rd.</p>
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		<title>By: Woody</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/06/29/barcelonas-metro-continues-its-expansion-at-a-relatively-cheap-price/#comment-62451</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=7403#comment-62451</guid>
		<description>Oh wait. Alan, I&#039;m not convinced that the long tail tracks are an example of &#039;poor engineering and design by incompetents&#039;, or rather isn&#039;t it stealth construction of the southernmost part of Phase II of this line? 

Once Phase I was sufficiently funded to reach a point of no return, it made sense to load costs from Phase II onto Phase I. That will make the northern extension seem more affordable when the MTA is gathering up commitments to start building Phase II -- already partly begun with those cut-and-cover segments from the 1970s -- of the Second Avenue Subway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh wait. Alan, I&#8217;m not convinced that the long tail tracks are an example of &#8216;poor engineering and design by incompetents&#8217;, or rather isn&#8217;t it stealth construction of the southernmost part of Phase II of this line? </p>
<p>Once Phase I was sufficiently funded to reach a point of no return, it made sense to load costs from Phase II onto Phase I. That will make the northern extension seem more affordable when the MTA is gathering up commitments to start building Phase II &#8212; already partly begun with those cut-and-cover segments from the 1970s &#8212; of the Second Avenue Subway.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/06/29/barcelonas-metro-continues-its-expansion-at-a-relatively-cheap-price/#comment-62341</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/?p=7403#comment-62341</guid>
		<description>Very interesting topic, since until reading the article I thought that L9/L10 was a big burial place for taxpayers&#039; money.

Digging in Barcelona is not an easy task. There are huge differences in the composition of the soil in just a few hundreds of meters, so the construction of the line has been cumbersome, having constantly to readapt the machinery to the type of soil that needs to be crossed. In addition to this, differences in labor cost exist, but are not as big as one could imagine. We&#039;re talking about a country with price levels on average pretty similar to the ones found in the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting topic, since until reading the article I thought that L9/L10 was a big burial place for taxpayers&#8217; money.</p>
<p>Digging in Barcelona is not an easy task. There are huge differences in the composition of the soil in just a few hundreds of meters, so the construction of the line has been cumbersome, having constantly to readapt the machinery to the type of soil that needs to be crossed. In addition to this, differences in labor cost exist, but are not as big as one could imagine. We&#8217;re talking about a country with price levels on average pretty similar to the ones found in the US.</p>
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